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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Council being sued for transflag crossings

173 replies

lcakethereforeIam · 06/07/2025 15:54

Apologies if there's already a thread but I've not found one

https://archive.ph/dCRzW

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/06/camden-council-pedestrian-crossing-legal-action/

'Unlawful political messaging'. Is this a thing? If it is and the complainant wins then it could have a wider implications regarding flag flying, possibly even pin badges and lanyards.

I did indulged in a small eyeroll at this statement from the Council

A spokesman added: “Camden is ‘no place for hate’ and we have a strong and continuing history of respect and support for everyone in our borough. We fight discrimination in all its forms, and this includes being an ally to our trans residents.

'Everyone'!? Clearly not the complainant or anyone else who doesn't buy into this divisive ideology. But, the statement implies those people are hateful.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 07/07/2025 09:55

Dwimmer · 07/07/2025 09:41

No they don’t, car still have priority unless they have painted the road of a pelican crossing then the traffic lights are the important bit.

So basically these things most likely trick pedestrians into believing that cars have to stop for them when in fact they don't?

How it is even legal to paint anything other than official road markings on a road?

CassOle · 07/07/2025 09:58

You are unlikely to be stabbed in the eye for criticising Christianity/Christians. So it's a safe target for the RSOH.

Lioncub2020 · 07/07/2025 09:59

Road marking need to be standardised. Then we all know what they mean.

Dwimmer · 07/07/2025 10:04

Lioncub2020 · 07/07/2025 09:59

Road marking need to be standardised. Then we all know what they mean.

They are. That is the point. These ‘road art murals’ are not road markings, they are political symbols that distract pedestrians, drivers annd other road users and use paints that affect the grip of the road surface. It should be an offence to paint anything on the road that is not a standardised sign purely needed for safe use of the roads.

CorvusPurpureus · 07/07/2025 10:10

Wait, what? They aren't actually crossings?

See, I've lived overseas for 10 years. These became trendy after I buggered off, so I always just vaguely assumed they were just existing pedestrian crossings that had been 'rainbow'ed.

I was aware that they are bad for VI people & spook horses, but I had no idea that if I used one to cross the road the cars didn't have to stop!

I would respectfully suggest that that might be another reason not to have them in pedestrian-busy tourist areas full of clueless foreigners & expats like me...

I'll be in the UK next week & might be in Camden (although it's not what it was...RIP market...). Will make sure I look both ways Confused

CorvusPurpureus · 07/07/2025 10:12

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 07/07/2025 09:55

So basically these things most likely trick pedestrians into believing that cars have to stop for them when in fact they don't?

How it is even legal to paint anything other than official road markings on a road?

x- post! Bonkers.

ImNunTheWiser · 07/07/2025 10:14

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 07/07/2025 09:55

So basically these things most likely trick pedestrians into believing that cars have to stop for them when in fact they don't?

How it is even legal to paint anything other than official road markings on a road?

Yes, that’s my take away from this. Bloody dangerous. You could take out any reference to LGBTQ from them and say they were in recognition of tap dancing dogs or summat, the point is they’re dangerous for pedestrians and other road users. And, of course, discriminatory. I live somewhere that doesn’t have these and so am unfamiliar with them. If I were to be driving in Camden, I wouldn’t have a clue what I was supposed to do with this.

On a side note, is that Trans flag crossing with the words ‘Look Both Ways’ supposed to be intentionally hilarious or is that just a coincidence?

lcakethereforeIam · 07/07/2025 10:21

If the Council's start putting up signs, flying flags or painting road crossings that push conservative Christianity as far as I'm concerned people can sue away.

I'm still waiting for my money from American right wing conservatives/ Christians btw, and I discover the ADF are meant to be giving me money too!?

I admit I'm a little confused why Ugandan Islamist terrorists are interested in financing British women's rights

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Democratic_Forces

Although they have a flag!

Allied Democratic Forces - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Democratic_Forces

OP posts:
Wherethebirdflies · 07/07/2025 10:30

We have a crossing like that in my area with a brightly coloured police car along side it’s absolutely pathetic. Aren’t emergency vehicles and zebra crossing that colour for a reason? Be who you want to be I couldn’t give a shit. At the end of the day it’s all about how you like to be fucked which our kids don’t need to know or pushed in their faces 24/7 🤢

SionnachRuadh · 07/07/2025 10:31

lcakethereforeIam · 07/07/2025 10:21

If the Council's start putting up signs, flying flags or painting road crossings that push conservative Christianity as far as I'm concerned people can sue away.

I'm still waiting for my money from American right wing conservatives/ Christians btw, and I discover the ADF are meant to be giving me money too!?

I admit I'm a little confused why Ugandan Islamist terrorists are interested in financing British women's rights

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Democratic_Forces

Although they have a flag!

I think this may be one of those confusing acronym thingies, like when I go on dating sites and see people's profiles saying "No ONS".

I still can't figure out what they've got against the Office for National Statistics.

lcakethereforeIam · 07/07/2025 10:34

The ONS don't know what a woman is and wasted millions in public money. I'd be pretty cross with them too 😠

OP posts:
givingitupok · 07/07/2025 11:15

So if a child aged say 12 was walking to school with a bunch of mates, walked onto the crossing expecting a car to stop, car doesn't stop on time as the child walked into their path, hits the children, who do we think would be found any fault? The child for using it as a zebra crossing? The car driver for not stopping (even though they don't have to), or the council for putting a bloody stupid crossing on the road?

This isn't even really an issue of politics for me. It's road safety and bloody daft to paint a confusing rainbow crossing on the road.

lcakethereforeIam · 07/07/2025 11:37

Are Councils and the DoTransport claiming that these crossings that aren't crossings have been put in places where crossings should be but, somehow, aren't anymore. Isn't there a process for having crossings installed? I imagine it's something like planning permission. Are these flag crossings side stepping this process? Or was the process followed but the Council's are claiming they decided not to bother with a crossing and put in one of these instead? In which case what's happened to the actual crossing? I assume it must have been determined there was a need for one. I know, I know, public safety really doesn't matter when there's virtue to signal 😒

OP posts:
POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 07/07/2025 11:38

Shedmistress · 07/07/2025 02:11

They can say what they like, but a marking on a road is a road marking.

If vehicles drive over it, it needs to meet certain safety requirements.

They can't pick and choose which bits of road need to meet the standard requirements of basic road design, that's the point of the specification. Well, it seems they can if they want. Until it hits the courts.

According to the Dept for Transport "Highway Art" is not covered by the Regulations relating to Road Markings, so I am wondering if a court case should also be against the DforT, ie. for issuing guidance that pointedly ignores the safety aspects of the composition and skid-resistance of materials used?

Given that the DforT maintains that the Road Marking Regulations do not cover "Highway Art" I am also wondering if there are general regulations about road surfaces that would apply and might be contravened by slippy "Highway Art"?

I did an internet search for "Rainbow Crossing Court Case" and a case in New Zealand came up top of the search results. The case was lost because NZ makes a similar distinction between "Road Markings" and
"Roadway Art".

CIV-2024-485-302 [2025] NZHC 609
DEANNA MERANIA ROA, DON GRANT TAINUI ROA AND LYNEOSA TUIQERE
vs
WELLINGTON CITY COUNCIL First Respondent
and
NEW ZEALAND TRANSPORT AGENCY WAKA KOTAHI Second Respondent

21 March 2025
https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/assets/cases/2025/2025-NZHC-609.pdf

However, the case makes no reference to the composition of materials used to create the Rainbow Crossing "Roadway Art" that was the cause of complaint.

That judgement mentions that that crossing was created in 2018, before NZ made an addition to its Land Transport Rule: Traffic Control Devices 2004 (TCD Rule) in 2020.

This addition lays out extra considerations for "Roadway Art" but again there is nothing about the composition of materials to be used. The judgement refers to the addition as intended to enable rather than restrict "Roadway Art".

(In case anyone has nodded off by this point - reminder this is an extract from a judgement in a NZ court, not the UK! Bolding as in original.)

What happened to the TCD Rule in 2020?

[98] In 2020, the TCD Rule was amended.39 The objective of the amendment was to “allow for the lawful installation on a roadway of markings that are not traffic control devices in particular circumstances”.40 The concept of roadway art was included in the Amended TCD Rule though, perhaps unhelpfully, there is no definition of “roadway art”. The most significant amendments for the purposes of the present case are to cl 5.5 and the insertion of a new cl 5.6 with examples. I set out both clauses and the examples below, using square brackets in cl 5.5 to indicate the changes that were made in 2020 in the Amended TCD Rule:

5.5 Markings intended for advertising purposes [or not connected with use of a road]

A person must not install, on a roadway, a marking that is intended to be used for the purpose of advertising or other purpose not connected with the use of the road [unless it is roadway art installed in accordance with 5.6(1)].

5.6 Requirements for roadway art 5.6(1) Despite anything in 5.4, a road controlling authority may install any marking on a roadway (roadway art) if the roadway art:

(a) is installed in a lower risk environment; and

(b) does not resemble and is not similar to a marking described in this Rule; and

(c) does not mislead road users about the meaning of any traffic control device; and

(d) is not part of or visually integrated into a marking specified in Schedule 2.

5.6(2) In this Rule, lower risk environment means an area—

(a) where the road controlling authority manages speeds, through the use of any combination of traffic control devices, roadside developments, roadway art and other changes in the road environment, with the aim to achieve an outcome where the operating speed of vehicles (except in emergency situations) is not more than 30km/h (whether or not the speed limit for the area is 30km/h); and

(b) in relation to which it is reasonable for the road controlling authority to believe that outcome has been or will be achieved

Example 1:
On a wide urban street with a 50km/h speed limit and that has a wideangle intersection with another street, a road controlling authority has narrowed the roadway by installing planter boxes and removing car parks. It also paints an assortment of coloured circles on the roadway. The shapes do not resemble and are not similar to any markings described in this Rule, and are also not part of or visually integrated into any markings specified in Schedule 2.

Those measures will achieve an outcome where the operating speed of vehicles (except in emergency situations) is not more than 30km/h.
The relevant area is a lower risk environment.

These painted circles are roadway art installed in accordance with
5.6(1).

Example 2:
A series of long rectangles are painted on the road, parallel to the kerb and perpendicular to oncoming vehicle traffic. These either resemble or are similar to markings for a pedestrian crossing, which are described in this Rule (see M1-1 in Schedule 2), so cannot be installed as roadway art under 5.6(1).

Example 3:
On a wide urban street that has a wide-angle intersection with another street, a road controlling authority has installed a sign advising to slow for pedestrians, with the aim of achieving an outcome where the operating speed of vehicles (except in emergency situations) is not more than 30km/h. However, it can be regularly observed that vehicles travel through the area at more than 30km/h. It is not reasonable to believe the outcome has been or will be achieved if nothing more is done. The relevant area is not a lower risk environment. Accordingly, roadway art cannot be installed in the area.

[99] The Amended TCD Rule also conferred additional powers on the Transport Agency in respect of markings and lower risk environments, but I do not intend to set these out in full here.

----

The full text of the Amended TCD Rule is in this document: 2.6 New clauses 5.6 to 5.9 inserted. Nothing about the composition of materials to be used.

Land Transport Rule: Traffic Control Devices Amendment 2020.
Patsy Reddy, Governor-General Order
in Council
At Wellington
this 27th day of July 2020
Present: The Right Hon Jacinda Ardern presiding in Council

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/traffic-control-devices-amendment-2020.pdf

This is the updated NZ Rule, which is less stringent than the UK Regulations as it seems to allow any sort of paint or paint-like material to be used, the only consideration being colour:

Land Transport Rule Traffic Control Devices 2004 Rule 54002/2004 As at 19 May 2022

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/615b81c9bbf626f0003ff5c3/6453132af473eeec1fd90d6e_Transport%20Rule%20Traffic%20Control%20Devices%20Rule%2054002%202004.pdf

========

It would be good to see a UK court case take up this issue. Even if these monstrosities cannot be banned then at least they could be made safer.

Personally, I would like to see all this "Highway Art" banned. It is not all Pride/Rainbow/Trans/BLM political stuff. Some of it is very beautiful but IMHO all of it is unnecessarily risky for all road users.

AI came up with this "Overview":

"Highway art," particularly when it involves unauthorized graffiti or street art, carries risks including legal consequences for artists, property damage perceptions, and potential health hazards from toxic art materials. Additionally, the artistic merit and value of such art can be debated, leading to controversies about its place and perception within the art world and society.

Specific Risks Associated with Highway Art:

Legal Repercussions:
Much of what is considered "highway art" (especially graffiti) is created without permission, leading to charges of vandalism and potential legal consequences for artists.

Property Damage and Public Perception:
Property owners may view street art as damage rather than beautification, leading to conflicts and public debates about the line between art and crime.

Health Hazards:
Art materials, including pigments, solvents, varnishes, and lacquers, can contain toxic ingredients that pose health risks like allergic reactions, respiratory problems, and long-term damage to organs if proper safety precautions are not taken.

Controversy and Artistic Legitimacy:
The nature of street art and graffiti, often created outside conventional art institutions, can lead to debates about its artistic legitimacy and whether it belongs in traditional gallery settings.

Structural Impact:
In some rare cases, like the Centralia, Pennsylvania "Graffiti Highway" scenario, the art's creation and the subsequent events (like the underground fire) negatively impacted the structural integrity of the highway itself.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 07/07/2025 11:54

lcakethereforeIam · 07/07/2025 11:37

Are Councils and the DoTransport claiming that these crossings that aren't crossings have been put in places where crossings should be but, somehow, aren't anymore. Isn't there a process for having crossings installed? I imagine it's something like planning permission. Are these flag crossings side stepping this process? Or was the process followed but the Council's are claiming they decided not to bother with a crossing and put in one of these instead? In which case what's happened to the actual crossing? I assume it must have been determined there was a need for one. I know, I know, public safety really doesn't matter when there's virtue to signal 😒

Just to make it even more confusing, the Regulations differentiate between "Highway Art" that is used in conjunction with regular traffic control signs, road studs, etc. that make it a formal, legal pedestrian crossing and . . . "informal Highway Art" that is not part of an official crossing.

Even when part of an official pedestrian crossing, "Highway Art" is not considered to be Road Markings as per the Regulations so it can be any colour.

If "Highway Art" is not part of an official pedestrian crossing then it must not resemble a Zebra Crossing.

I assume this is why the various "Flag crossings" have the stripes running at right angles to the pavement rather than parallel to the pavement?

The FOIR reply from the Dept for Transport that I posted upthread explains this:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5368475-council-being-sued-for-transflag-crossings?reply=145501425

and

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5368475-council-being-sued-for-transflag-crossings?reply=145501778

SionnachRuadh · 07/07/2025 12:05

If anyone can find a sympathetic MP, I'm sure that Roads Minister Lillian Greenwood would be delighted to answer a PQ on this subject.

BalladOfBarryAndFreda · 07/07/2025 12:11

Shedmistress · 07/07/2025 09:14

It is socially progressive to run people over now, dont you know.

Silly me

Dwimmer · 07/07/2025 12:22

If "Highway Art" is not part of an official pedestrian crossing then it must not resemble a Zebra Crossing.

Regardless of the pattern, surely it ‘resembles a zebra crossing’ if a predestination might confuse its purpose with that of a zebra crossing ie a crossing that gives them priority? And we have seen plenty of posters on this thread asking if it does do this, so it clearly does ‘resemble a zebra crossing’.

lcakethereforeIam · 07/07/2025 12:40

So transcrossings aren't crossings?

Good job we don't have laws against jaywalking, all the pedestrians who might fall foul of those. I assume that cars can park on them as long as there aren't any other no parking rules in effect.

OP posts:
Dwimmer · 07/07/2025 12:41

They just identify as crossings….

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 07/07/2025 14:05

Dwimmer · 07/07/2025 12:22

If "Highway Art" is not part of an official pedestrian crossing then it must not resemble a Zebra Crossing.

Regardless of the pattern, surely it ‘resembles a zebra crossing’ if a predestination might confuse its purpose with that of a zebra crossing ie a crossing that gives them priority? And we have seen plenty of posters on this thread asking if it does do this, so it clearly does ‘resemble a zebra crossing’.

"so it clearly does ‘resemble a zebra crossing’."

I agree. The law is an ass.

RedToothBrush · 07/07/2025 14:20

givingitupok · 07/07/2025 08:58

What are the crossings for? Do cars HAVE to stop at them? I always thought the black and white were high contrast so everyone could see them and they were visible at night (also a bit of a psychological cue as we all know to slow down for black and white). What is the purpose of the rainbow ones?

The road is not the place for art.

The road is the place for simpl, clear communications that are universally understood and don't create confusion.

Art and making a statement of acceptance etc etc has no place on the road where communication has a primary function - to keep order and keep people safe.

It not like we have a shortage of fucking ugly walls and buildings out there, in the UK, to paint pretty pictures to our hearts content is it?

Sskka · 07/07/2025 22:30

Wasn’t there a FOI request that revealed Camden council were somehow paying about £20k each for these? And now it turns out they aren’t even crossings! Wtf goes through people’s minds.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 07/07/2025 22:43

Sskka · 07/07/2025 22:30

Wasn’t there a FOI request that revealed Camden council were somehow paying about £20k each for these? And now it turns out they aren’t even crossings! Wtf goes through people’s minds.

It looks like these ones are actually pedestrian crossings.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/06/camden-council-pedestrian-crossing-legal-action/

The thing is that "Highway Art" is not always an actual crossing, whereas Zebra Crossings always are actual pedestrian crossings.

Bonkers and dangerous virtue signalling.

Dwimmer · 07/07/2025 22:45

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 07/07/2025 22:43

It looks like these ones are actually pedestrian crossings.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/06/camden-council-pedestrian-crossing-legal-action/

The thing is that "Highway Art" is not always an actual crossing, whereas Zebra Crossings always are actual pedestrian crossings.

Bonkers and dangerous virtue signalling.

The picture shows a flag painted on a crossing. The flag in no way forms any part of the crossing.