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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Museums Association response to EHRC consultation

77 replies

Manderleyagain · 04/07/2025 14:19

The MA have published their response. They seem to have piled it all into the 'anything else you want to add' question. It's not a surprising response, but it is a bit embarrassing. Most is irrelevant and I'm not sure what the ehrc will do with the information. And they seem to have forgotten that in the same way that you can say "this activity is only open to under 12s" and people are expected to heed that, you can say "this facility/session/group is only for those born female".
It does raise some issues about practicalities - i think it's possible that courts (especially lower courts) could take the view that not providing unisex loos thereby making trans people use their own sex's loos could be discrimination against pc of gr for some trans people. But they don't put it like that.

I have tried to bold the more relevant bits of the response.

https://www.museumsassociation.org/campaigns/advocacy/our-response-to-the-ehrc-code-of-practice-consultation/

I have pasted the full response in here:

"Do you have any other feedback about the content of the code of practice that you have not already mentioned?

The Museums Association (MA) is a dynamic membership organisation that campaigns for socially engaged museums and a representative workforce. We work ethically and sustainably and collaborate with partners where we have common aims and values. We advocate for and support museums and everyone who works in and with them so that the value and impact of museums and their collections is realised. We are the only organisation for all museums in the four nations of the UK. We recognise the differences in context, culture, legislation, policy and practice between the nations and we strive for equitable treatment for all our members in the UK. We are independent and not-for-profit and advocate for museums without fear or favour from governments or funding influences.
The MA is committed to equality, diversity inclusion and believes museums should be safe and inclusive spaces for all including trans staff and audiences. Our Code of Ethics for Museums asks museums and those who work in and with them to treat everyone equally, with honesty and respect. We have endorsed Trans-Inclusive Culture guidance which was published by the University of Leicester’s Research Centre for Museums and Galleries. The work was carried out in the context of growing uncertainty and anxiety surrounding this topic, and it aims to bring clarity, common sense, pragmatism and ethics to a debate that is too often distorted by misinformed, highly charged and polarised viewpoints.
We are concerned that the EHRC Code of Practice focuses on exclusion rather than inclusion. We would like the Code of Practice to provide examples of how trans people can still be included in services and spaces in the context of the ruling.
Museums have the power to inform and enrich people’s understanding of identity and belonging through the stories they tell, for example Gender Stories, currently on display at Bristol Museum uses collections to explore and celebrates the complexities of gender identity before the exhibition tours to Brighton Museum and Art Gallery and National Museums Liverpool (Gender Stories | Bristol Museums). The EHRC Code of Practice does not clarify whether people can still refer to trans women as women and trans men as men or use their correct personal pronouns. We believe that it is important for museum staff and audiences to have their identities respected. This is especially important when museums work with trans communities to improve representation in collections, exhibitions and programmes. We believe trans communities should have agency to be represented in museums in a way that is consistent with how they identify.
The definition of sex in the Equality Act is binary and does not include intersex or non-binary people. Therefore, this raises the question of how audiences who identify as intersex or non-binary can be included and represented in museums.
At a time when society is experiencing increasing polarisation and challenging issues, museums can play a role in delivering social justice, bringing us and our communities together, actively breaking down barriers and fostering conversation and reflection.
The MA’s Museums Change Lives campaign highlights how museums across the UK are doing this by working with community partners, listening to and acting on their priorities, and setting common goals to achieve more inclusive and equitable spaces. These partnerships mean that museums of all sizes are using their spaces and collections to make a positive difference to people’s lives by working collaboratively with community groups, health charities and other third-sector organisations.
For example, the Unicorn exhibition at Perth Museum centred local LGBTQ+ stories. As part of an exploration of Scotland’s national animal, the exhibition focused on the unicorn as an LGBTQ+ symbol. The exhibition was a critical and commercial success and created a safe, relevant and celebratory space for LGBTQ+ people in Perthshire. Had the museum not respected the pronouns and identities of community participants or excluded participants from using certain facilities, they likely would have caused reputational damage, isolated the LGBTQ+ community and become an unwelcoming and potentially unsafe space for LGBTQ+ people.
The guidance suggests that allowing trans people to use toilets that reflect their gender identity would put organisations at risk of legal consequences. However, it would be humiliating and distressing for a trans person to be forced to use toilets that do not align with their gender.
We think it would be inappropriate for museums to ask staff, volunteers or visitors about birth sex as this might violate trans people’s human rights to privacy. It would also be impractical for museums to do this without causing offence, distress or discrimination.
Asking museum staff to question a person’s sex would likely result in them having to profile visitors based on appearance. It asks museum staff to actively exclude visitors from certain facilities such as toilets which would likely cause harm and create a negative visitor experience. Trans people have historically been excluded from museum collections and spaces, therefore, as a sector we need to be working to remove barriers to access rather than creating additional barriers.
We encourage museums to create welcoming spaces for visitors and we believe it would be unethical and impractical for museums to gatekeep who can access services, events and toilets.
Ethical concerns aside, museum staff are overstretched and underfunded so would not have the capacity or resource to employ staff to check the birth sex of every visitor who needs to use the toilets. It is impractical to ask visitors to carry identification of sex at birth with them in order to access facilities and services.
We are concerned by the suggestion of using birth certificates to prove someone’s sex. Many people do not know where their birth certificate is, and many people such as tourists and refugees may struggle to provide a birth certificate. Overall, it is at odds with museum practice which seeks to improve access and participation in museums.

Our response to the EHRC Code of Practice consultation - Museums Association

The Museums Association has responded to the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) Code of practice for services, public functions and associations:

https://www.museumsassociation.org/campaigns/advocacy/our-response-to-the-ehrc-code-of-practice-consultation/

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 04/07/2025 14:29

And I will add - its strange. They seem to think the Ehrc reading of the ruling outlaws exhibitions that include or explore trans people or non binary and intersex people. On what grounds could the EA be used to prevent a museum serving / engaging with ppl with dsds?. I bet there has been very little of that so far but what's to stop them? And nb ppl are those with a certain set of beliefs about themself in relation to sex and sex stereotypes. I tend to think it"s bollocks (or a misdirected response to a sexist society) but I dont see how the guidence prevents a museum serving those people any more than it prevents them from serving me who doesnt have those beliefs.

OP posts:
IDareSay · 04/07/2025 14:34

"Trans people have historically been excluded from museum collections and spaces, therefore, as a sector we need to be working to remove barriers to access rather than creating additional barriers."

Really?! Have museums had people on the door denying entry to 'trans people'.

Honestly, these people have lost the plot.

PatsFruitCake · 04/07/2025 14:39

I work in the sector. It's all tediously familiar.

MarieDeGournay · 04/07/2025 14:46

it would be humiliating and distressing for a trans person to be forced to use toilets that do not align with their gender.

I know it's been said a million times or more but it's obvious the message still hasn't got through to the likes of the MA - isn't it just as humiliating and distressing for a a woman to be forced to use toilets that do not align with her right to a single-sex space?

Merrymouse · 04/07/2025 14:55

PatsFruitCake · 04/07/2025 14:39

I work in the sector. It's all tediously familiar.

It's quite concerning that the writer doesn't seem able to understand the scope and meaning of the judgement.

Would this response have been outsourced to a junior member of staff?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/07/2025 14:57

IDareSay · 04/07/2025 14:34

"Trans people have historically been excluded from museum collections and spaces, therefore, as a sector we need to be working to remove barriers to access rather than creating additional barriers."

Really?! Have museums had people on the door denying entry to 'trans people'.

Honestly, these people have lost the plot.

What they mean is "we never really thought about trans people until 10 years or so ago. By not considering their needs we might have been unwittingly excluding them. To avoid any doubt it's important that we are allowed to have a great big sign that says "all trans people welcome here" and we do that with the traditional display of welcoming trans people to chose a toilet. We must perform this ritual to ensure any lingering spirits of historic prejudices are dispelled. If we cannot perform it we risk the evil spirits returning"

yetanotherusernameAgain · 04/07/2025 14:59

That last part about needing to check the birth sex of every visitor who wants to use the toilet and the impracticalities of producing one's birth certificate is just ridiculous. No one is suggesting that anyone do that.

Is there a name for that type of argument? Something between straw man argument and tilting at windmills. Basically objecting to something ludicrous which no one in their right mind would have thought was a possibility in the first place.

Manderleyagain · 04/07/2025 15:01

MarieDeGournay · 04/07/2025 14:46

it would be humiliating and distressing for a trans person to be forced to use toilets that do not align with their gender.

I know it's been said a million times or more but it's obvious the message still hasn't got through to the likes of the MA - isn't it just as humiliating and distressing for a a woman to be forced to use toilets that do not align with her right to a single-sex space?

Yes there is no sense of other people with rights in the response. Women also have rights and the point of the sc ruling is that previous misinterpretations of the law were discriminatory to Women. The MA obviously like the disctriminatory interpretation where the pc of sex was impinged on. Single sex provision is already an inclusion measure - to allow us to go about our lives on an equal footing with men.

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 04/07/2025 15:01

MarieDeGournay · 04/07/2025 14:46

it would be humiliating and distressing for a trans person to be forced to use toilets that do not align with their gender.

I know it's been said a million times or more but it's obvious the message still hasn't got through to the likes of the MA - isn't it just as humiliating and distressing for a a woman to be forced to use toilets that do not align with her right to a single-sex space?

Asking museum staff to question a person’s sex would likely result in them having to profile visitors based on appearance.

Whether or not museum staff would need to enforce single sex spaces any more than they already do is up for debate, but presumably they already restrict services and provide discounts based on age - do they always ask for proof of ID when they do this?

RobinHeartella · 04/07/2025 15:03

The EHRC Code of Practice does not clarify whether people can still refer to trans women as women and trans men as men or use their correct personal pronouns.

They go on to make the argument that if they're banned from using preferred pronouns that'd give them reputation damage with the lgbt community:

Had the museum not respected the pronouns and identities of community participants or excluded participants from using certain facilities, they likely would have caused reputational damage, isolated the LGBTQ+ community

No one is trying to ban anyone from using custom pronouns in their own speech.

But I think that organisations are moving away from letting people dictate which pronouns other people use about them.

When someone says "I use the pronouns she/her", what they mean is "I insist you use the pronouns she/her when you talk about me"

This statement in the op gets that completely confused, I think. Edit to add relevant quote

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/07/2025 15:04

Good grief. What a load of self indulgent drivel. We really are in trouble as a society when the straightforward law expecting people to respect women's rights to change, toilet and shower with privacy from men generates such lunacy 😑

Merrymouse · 04/07/2025 15:05

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/07/2025 14:57

What they mean is "we never really thought about trans people until 10 years or so ago. By not considering their needs we might have been unwittingly excluding them. To avoid any doubt it's important that we are allowed to have a great big sign that says "all trans people welcome here" and we do that with the traditional display of welcoming trans people to chose a toilet. We must perform this ritual to ensure any lingering spirits of historic prejudices are dispelled. If we cannot perform it we risk the evil spirits returning"

If they actually cared about trans rights, they should have paid attention back in 2022 when the Haldane judgement confirmed the legal sex of people without a GRC. They have had three years to increase provision of unisex toilets.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 04/07/2025 15:06

That's a lot of rhetoric just to say " but what about the poor menz who think they are women?"

With an added rider of "we don't, of course, give a stuff about actual women."

Tedious doesn't even begin to describe it. It's getting farcical now.

Ursulla · 04/07/2025 15:17

The Museums Association (MA) is a dynamic membership organisation that campaigns for socially engaged museums

Well that explains all the verbose, preachy, hierarchy of victimhood exhibition notes stuck to the walls that have been getting on my tits these past few years at local museums.

Manderleyagain · 04/07/2025 15:18

This moment will be quite interesting & useful for the history of the gender-de-loonification of the UK. In 2018 lots of organisations wrote their responses to the gra consultation, and they are all still there, setting out for eternity why it's definitely fine to allow anyone to rewrite their birth certificate based on sef id. And now we will have this - organisations setting out why it's mean and inconvenient to allow women spaces and services based on sex.

OP posts:
Brainworm · 04/07/2025 15:47

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/07/2025 15:04

Good grief. What a load of self indulgent drivel. We really are in trouble as a society when the straightforward law expecting people to respect women's rights to change, toilet and shower with privacy from men generates such lunacy 😑

💯

Brainworm · 04/07/2025 15:53

I can’t help but wonder if the hyperbolic, irrelevant add-ons have been included because they don’t feel that having to provide a third option when single single sex services are provided really is all that bad!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/07/2025 15:53

Ursulla · 04/07/2025 15:17

The Museums Association (MA) is a dynamic membership organisation that campaigns for socially engaged museums

Well that explains all the verbose, preachy, hierarchy of victimhood exhibition notes stuck to the walls that have been getting on my tits these past few years at local museums.

I wonder if this museum for example is a member?

www.artsprofessional.co.uk/news/museum-alters-trans-exhibit-amid-defamation-concerns

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/07/2025 15:56

Well colour me shocked that their EDI policy lists the wrong protected characteristic - gender instead of sex

www.museumsassociation.org/about/our-policies/edi-policy/

moto748e · 04/07/2025 15:56

I like the term, "gender-de-loonification ". 😁

moto748e · 04/07/2025 16:11

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/07/2025 15:56

Well colour me shocked that their EDI policy lists the wrong protected characteristic - gender instead of sex

www.museumsassociation.org/about/our-policies/edi-policy/

So cynical.

ChristianaNuttall · 04/07/2025 16:24

What incoherent nonsense.

PatsFruitCake · 04/07/2025 16:33

Merrymouse · 04/07/2025 14:55

It's quite concerning that the writer doesn't seem able to understand the scope and meaning of the judgement.

Would this response have been outsourced to a junior member of staff?

I wouldn't have thought so, there would be sign off from someone senior. I think a lot of people in the sector are hopelessly captured and incapable of being neutral.

OldCrone · 04/07/2025 16:48

Merrymouse · 04/07/2025 15:01

Asking museum staff to question a person’s sex would likely result in them having to profile visitors based on appearance.

Whether or not museum staff would need to enforce single sex spaces any more than they already do is up for debate, but presumably they already restrict services and provide discounts based on age - do they always ask for proof of ID when they do this?

It strikes me that the followers of genderism have a very low opinion of people who identify as trans. They seem to think that asking people to use the correct facilities for their sex would need constant policing. They don't seem to think that trans-identified people would be reasonable, decent people who would comply of their own volition. They seem to think that all trans-identified people are sociopaths who would constantly break the rules and do whatever they thought they could get away with.

IwantToRetire · 04/07/2025 17:13

Just send them this very practical guidance which catering companies have managed to write. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5366805-shock-horror-some-commercial-companies-are-just-getting-on-with-following-the-ehrc-interim-guidelines

And that all they need to do is put up signs saying people should not break the law. And in case anyone doesn't know the Supreme Court has ruled that sex is a biological fact not an identity, and that they expect people to observe the law and not make their staff have to act as though they are teachers with a bunch of naughty school children.

Shock, horror! Some commercial companies are just getting on with following the EHRC Interim Guidelines | Mumsnet

Please note I am not suggesting this is THE blueprint! But was taken aback to find that there are some who aren't getting worked up, or taking offenc...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5366805-shock-horror-some-commercial-companies-are-just-getting-on-with-following-the-ehrc-interim-guidelines

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