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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Museums Association response to EHRC consultation

77 replies

Manderleyagain · 04/07/2025 14:19

The MA have published their response. They seem to have piled it all into the 'anything else you want to add' question. It's not a surprising response, but it is a bit embarrassing. Most is irrelevant and I'm not sure what the ehrc will do with the information. And they seem to have forgotten that in the same way that you can say "this activity is only open to under 12s" and people are expected to heed that, you can say "this facility/session/group is only for those born female".
It does raise some issues about practicalities - i think it's possible that courts (especially lower courts) could take the view that not providing unisex loos thereby making trans people use their own sex's loos could be discrimination against pc of gr for some trans people. But they don't put it like that.

I have tried to bold the more relevant bits of the response.

https://www.museumsassociation.org/campaigns/advocacy/our-response-to-the-ehrc-code-of-practice-consultation/

I have pasted the full response in here:

"Do you have any other feedback about the content of the code of practice that you have not already mentioned?

The Museums Association (MA) is a dynamic membership organisation that campaigns for socially engaged museums and a representative workforce. We work ethically and sustainably and collaborate with partners where we have common aims and values. We advocate for and support museums and everyone who works in and with them so that the value and impact of museums and their collections is realised. We are the only organisation for all museums in the four nations of the UK. We recognise the differences in context, culture, legislation, policy and practice between the nations and we strive for equitable treatment for all our members in the UK. We are independent and not-for-profit and advocate for museums without fear or favour from governments or funding influences.
The MA is committed to equality, diversity inclusion and believes museums should be safe and inclusive spaces for all including trans staff and audiences. Our Code of Ethics for Museums asks museums and those who work in and with them to treat everyone equally, with honesty and respect. We have endorsed Trans-Inclusive Culture guidance which was published by the University of Leicester’s Research Centre for Museums and Galleries. The work was carried out in the context of growing uncertainty and anxiety surrounding this topic, and it aims to bring clarity, common sense, pragmatism and ethics to a debate that is too often distorted by misinformed, highly charged and polarised viewpoints.
We are concerned that the EHRC Code of Practice focuses on exclusion rather than inclusion. We would like the Code of Practice to provide examples of how trans people can still be included in services and spaces in the context of the ruling.
Museums have the power to inform and enrich people’s understanding of identity and belonging through the stories they tell, for example Gender Stories, currently on display at Bristol Museum uses collections to explore and celebrates the complexities of gender identity before the exhibition tours to Brighton Museum and Art Gallery and National Museums Liverpool (Gender Stories | Bristol Museums). The EHRC Code of Practice does not clarify whether people can still refer to trans women as women and trans men as men or use their correct personal pronouns. We believe that it is important for museum staff and audiences to have their identities respected. This is especially important when museums work with trans communities to improve representation in collections, exhibitions and programmes. We believe trans communities should have agency to be represented in museums in a way that is consistent with how they identify.
The definition of sex in the Equality Act is binary and does not include intersex or non-binary people. Therefore, this raises the question of how audiences who identify as intersex or non-binary can be included and represented in museums.
At a time when society is experiencing increasing polarisation and challenging issues, museums can play a role in delivering social justice, bringing us and our communities together, actively breaking down barriers and fostering conversation and reflection.
The MA’s Museums Change Lives campaign highlights how museums across the UK are doing this by working with community partners, listening to and acting on their priorities, and setting common goals to achieve more inclusive and equitable spaces. These partnerships mean that museums of all sizes are using their spaces and collections to make a positive difference to people’s lives by working collaboratively with community groups, health charities and other third-sector organisations.
For example, the Unicorn exhibition at Perth Museum centred local LGBTQ+ stories. As part of an exploration of Scotland’s national animal, the exhibition focused on the unicorn as an LGBTQ+ symbol. The exhibition was a critical and commercial success and created a safe, relevant and celebratory space for LGBTQ+ people in Perthshire. Had the museum not respected the pronouns and identities of community participants or excluded participants from using certain facilities, they likely would have caused reputational damage, isolated the LGBTQ+ community and become an unwelcoming and potentially unsafe space for LGBTQ+ people.
The guidance suggests that allowing trans people to use toilets that reflect their gender identity would put organisations at risk of legal consequences. However, it would be humiliating and distressing for a trans person to be forced to use toilets that do not align with their gender.
We think it would be inappropriate for museums to ask staff, volunteers or visitors about birth sex as this might violate trans people’s human rights to privacy. It would also be impractical for museums to do this without causing offence, distress or discrimination.
Asking museum staff to question a person’s sex would likely result in them having to profile visitors based on appearance. It asks museum staff to actively exclude visitors from certain facilities such as toilets which would likely cause harm and create a negative visitor experience. Trans people have historically been excluded from museum collections and spaces, therefore, as a sector we need to be working to remove barriers to access rather than creating additional barriers.
We encourage museums to create welcoming spaces for visitors and we believe it would be unethical and impractical for museums to gatekeep who can access services, events and toilets.
Ethical concerns aside, museum staff are overstretched and underfunded so would not have the capacity or resource to employ staff to check the birth sex of every visitor who needs to use the toilets. It is impractical to ask visitors to carry identification of sex at birth with them in order to access facilities and services.
We are concerned by the suggestion of using birth certificates to prove someone’s sex. Many people do not know where their birth certificate is, and many people such as tourists and refugees may struggle to provide a birth certificate. Overall, it is at odds with museum practice which seeks to improve access and participation in museums.

Our response to the EHRC Code of Practice consultation - Museums Association

The Museums Association has responded to the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) Code of practice for services, public functions and associations:

https://www.museumsassociation.org/campaigns/advocacy/our-response-to-the-ehrc-code-of-practice-consultation/

OP posts:
POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 05/07/2025 20:43

Don't know why my post appeared twice.

PreetyinPurple · 05/07/2025 20:51

Museums have been captured for a while. There have been lots of projects to ‘queer’ collections whilst ignoring the existence of women if possible.
This medieval needle might have been used to sew a mini skirt for a peasant with AGP… lots of desperate over reaching.

Although I heard of a project that looked at underground gay clubs in the past and I thought that was great, except they are LGBTQI+. I’m not sure where they will find clubs for people with DSD.

KnottyAuty · 07/07/2025 10:17

Merrymouse · 04/07/2025 15:05

If they actually cared about trans rights, they should have paid attention back in 2022 when the Haldane judgement confirmed the legal sex of people without a GRC. They have had three years to increase provision of unisex toilets.

THIS!

KnottyAuty · 07/07/2025 10:29

hholiday · 05/07/2025 04:40

I mean, I basically want to know, if I go into a ladies’ toilet and find a man in there and, as a result, feel intimidated or even threatened by his behaviour- either towards myself or any of the other female users - will the staff react in any way that is at all helpful? Will they remove him? Will they call the police? Will the police do anything? Statements like this leave such questions hanging in the wind.

It's interesting isn't it? It might not be voyeurism or indecent exposure etc but should it be considered a Public Order Offence?

Like it is not illegal to burn a bible at home or at a lawful, policed protest, but if you turned up on a Sunday and burned one on the steps of a church, then that would be a Public Order
Offence - stirring up trouble based on a protected characteristic.

[I was about to use and acronym and then realised that "doing a POO" was not going to help anyone's understanding of toilet related problem 🤣🤣🤣]

So why is a man going into the ladies loo or changing room not considered in the same way?

MarieDeGournay · 07/07/2025 10:34

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 05/07/2025 20:43

Don't know why my post appeared twice.

Edited

Probably because it was so good, like 'New York, New York - so good they named it twice'Grin

SabrinaThwaite · 26/07/2025 19:29

Just thought I’d update this thread with the Museum Galleries Scotland’s response.

www.museumsgalleriesscotland.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/EHRC-Code-of-Practice-Consultation-public-statement.docx

Who knew that 1.1 million people in the UK have a DSD? 🤔

PrettyDamnCosmic · 27/07/2025 06:28

SabrinaThwaite · 26/07/2025 19:29

Just thought I’d update this thread with the Museum Galleries Scotland’s response.

www.museumsgalleriesscotland.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/EHRC-Code-of-Practice-Consultation-public-statement.docx

Who knew that 1.1 million people in the UK have a DSD? 🤔

What kind of idiot publishes a modifiable Word document instead of a PDF?

Sausagenbacon · 27/07/2025 07:19

Thanks for such an interesting response lunatone, on the omnicause.
I'm afraid that most British museums are totally captured ( i'm in Bristol, and it's a prime example).
At the moment, i'm travelling through the Netherlands, and museums just don't seem to bother with this, which is refreshing, but I wonder why. Is it because I don't know Dutch, so I miss it. Or is all this a done deal here, so they can shut up about it?
I'd love to know.

Merrymouse · 27/07/2025 07:58

They seem to be mixing up two different issues.

Regarding inclusion, everything the EHRC has said stems from the SC decision. A service must exclude either all men or no men otherwise it is discriminatory. That is the law, and the EHRC cannot advise otherwise.

Regarding 'policing' toilets, if they thought that previously this was not their responsibility because they can't verify sex, the SC decision doesn't change that.

Roystonv · 27/07/2025 08:02

National Trust too, twisting places and people to meet their be nice agenda.

Sausagenbacon · 27/07/2025 08:08

Historically museums, galleries and art schools excluded women or restricted their access
Is that true about museums and galleries(i'm happy to be corrected)?
I don't think it is.

Sausagenbacon · 27/07/2025 08:10

..and I give you the Burrell Collection, the Mary Rose in Portsmouth. And the dreadful V and A in Dundee.

Merrymouse · 27/07/2025 08:31

Interestingly, they get the 1.1 million figure from an interview in the Manchester university magazine. From what I can see this is a promotional publication of the kind that all universities produce, and I don't think it would make any claim to be a publication that should be referenced as an authoritative source.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/about/magazine/features/rights-of-intersex-children/

I suspect that part of the problem is that if you google 'how many people are intersex' you come up with these zombie statistics because anyone who can properly explain the answer would begin by explaining why they wouldn't frame the question in this way.

The rights of intersex children | The University of Manchester

Research. Teaching and learning. Social responsibility. Discover more about The University of Manchester here.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/about/magazine/features/rights-of-intersex-children/

lady69 · 27/07/2025 08:56

yetanotherusernameAgain · 04/07/2025 14:59

That last part about needing to check the birth sex of every visitor who wants to use the toilet and the impracticalities of producing one's birth certificate is just ridiculous. No one is suggesting that anyone do that.

Is there a name for that type of argument? Something between straw man argument and tilting at windmills. Basically objecting to something ludicrous which no one in their right mind would have thought was a possibility in the first place.

The type of argument is “Reductio ad absurdum” iirc.

BuffysBigSister · 27/07/2025 11:46

SabrinaThwaite · 26/07/2025 19:29

Just thought I’d update this thread with the Museum Galleries Scotland’s response.

www.museumsgalleriesscotland.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/EHRC-Code-of-Practice-Consultation-public-statement.docx

Who knew that 1.1 million people in the UK have a DSD? 🤔

Just emailed them to tell them I won't be renewing my Friends membership if this is their position. I am not giving my money to institutions that don't support women's rights. I also mentioned they needed to do some more research on the whole "intersex" thing

Floisme · 27/07/2025 12:22

A few years ago I applied to volunteer at a local museum, sensed the vibe and withdrew. Like many museums, this one had (and presumably still has) a big education programme and hosted a lot of primary school visits. I felt very uneasy at the kind of 'information' I might see, overhear or be expected to repeat.

AnnaMagnani · 27/07/2025 12:52

My nearest major museum employed a lot of new curatorial staff during Covid when the guilt kicked in about Black Lives Matters and trans.

Unfortunately their exhibitions are now coming to fruition and I just don't want to use my leisure time to be preached at. I am desperately hoping the attendance figures will tell them something but I suspect there are plenty of liberals locally who enjoy being told how privileged they are and we might have to put up with this evening longer.

Coatsoff42 · 27/07/2025 16:56

As always, every assumes transgender members of the public are unable or unwilling to follow the law, or to respect the privacy of others.
Some of us live in an individualistic society full of freedom of expression with no expectation to think of others, some of us live in a society that polices our speech and curtails our actions with threats of violence.

Grammarnut · 27/07/2025 20:49

MarieDeGournay · 04/07/2025 14:46

it would be humiliating and distressing for a trans person to be forced to use toilets that do not align with their gender.

I know it's been said a million times or more but it's obvious the message still hasn't got through to the likes of the MA - isn't it just as humiliating and distressing for a a woman to be forced to use toilets that do not align with her right to a single-sex space?

That doesn't matter. It's only women.

Grammarnut · 27/07/2025 20:54

Rightsraptor · 04/07/2025 22:31

I had no idea the unicorn was the national animal of Scotland.

Do many countries have mythical animals to represent them? I can't help feeling that Scotland might be a little more grounded in certain aspects if it didn't so whole-heartedly chase the impossible, like unicorns and changing sex.

It's on the Scottish coat of arms. Demonstrably male, too, both of them - as is the one on the UK coat of arms (along with the definitely male lion). I object to unicorns being used as a trans symbol - oh, mind, unicorns are vicious, dangerous, male and have both sharp horns and sharp hooves: maybe a subliminal choice given TRAs normal mentallity towards anyone who gainsays them?

AlexandraLeaving · 27/07/2025 21:51

Coatsoff42 · 27/07/2025 16:56

As always, every assumes transgender members of the public are unable or unwilling to follow the law, or to respect the privacy of others.
Some of us live in an individualistic society full of freedom of expression with no expectation to think of others, some of us live in a society that polices our speech and curtails our actions with threats of violence.

As always, every assumes transgender members of the public are unable or unwilling to follow the law, or to respect the privacy of others

This is a really important point. I would like to believe that the trans people I know would be considerate and law-abiding. But when I hear TRA organisations suggesting that toilets will require policing in future, it makes me wonder whether I just know a couple of unusually decent ones.

Tecklefancier · 30/07/2025 15:05

First time post on the board. I have worked as a volunteer in a small local museum since it first started ten years ago. There was a lovely atmosphere and many visitors commented on their warm welcome. Now a sticker appeared on the window with a rainbow flag and a LGBTQ+ welcomed here. I felt that it was sending a message that people with gender critical views were not welcome. The museum director was very unsympathetic to my views and came out with all the usual slogans such as persecuted minority and insisted that I did not discuss the matter with any other volunteers. I am very sad to lose my connection with the museum which I really enjoyed but I felt I had no choice.Im very sad.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 30/07/2025 15:24

The Museums Association (MA) is a dynamic membership organisation that campaigns for socially engaged museums and a representative workforce. We work ethically and sustainably and collaborate with partners where we have common aims and values. We advocate for and support museums and everyone who works in and with them so that the value and impact of museums and their collections is realised. We are the only organisation for all museums in the four nations of the UK. We recognise the differences in context, culture, legislation, policy and practice between the nations and we strive for equitable treatment for all our members in the UK. We are independent and not-for-profit and advocate for museums without fear or favour from governments or funding influences. The MA is committed to equality, diversity inclusion and believes museums should be safe and inclusive spaces for all including trans staff and audiences. Our Code of Ethics for Museums asks museums and those who work in and with them to treat everyone equally, with honesty and respect. We have endorsed Trans-Inclusive Culture guidance which was published by the University of Leicester’s Research Centre for Museums and Galleries. The work was carried out in the context of growing uncertainty and anxiety surrounding this topic, and it aims to bring clarity, common sense, pragmatism and ethics to a debate that is too often distorted by misinformed, highly charged and polarised viewpoints.

Blah-di-blah-di-blah.

We are concerned that the EHRC Code of Practice focuses on exclusion rather than inclusion. We would like the Code of Practice to provide examples of how trans people can still be included in services and spaces in the context of the ruling.

Men are not supposed to be included in women's single sex spaces. The whole point of these spaces is to exclude men.

You're a museums association, you don't need a Code of Practice to tell you what to do. You respect the law about single sex spaces, which is crystal clear, and if you want to include trans people in the spaces and services you provide, you encourage your members to install additional gender neutral spaces alongside any single sex ones. This is not rocket science. Be the change you wish to see in the world.

Museums have the power to inform and enrich people’s understanding of identity and belonging through the stories they tell, for example Gender Stories, currently on display at Bristol Museum uses collections to explore and celebrates the complexities of gender identity before the exhibition tours to Brighton Museum and Art Gallery and National Museums Liverpool (Gender Stories | Bristol Museums).

Yes but it would be far more relevant for them to stick to their actual subject matter. Not everything needs to be queered. Gender identity isn't that interesting to most people.

The EHRC Code of Practice does not clarify whether people can still refer to trans women as women and trans men as men or use their correct personal pronouns.

Do you need the EHRC Code of Practice to explain how to wipe your bum as well?

We believe that it is important for museum staff and audiences to have their identities respected. This is especially important when museums work with trans communities to improve representation in collections, exhibitions and programmes. We believe trans communities should have agency to be represented in museums in a way that is consistent with how they identify.

Or, and I know this is a radical idea, you could just get the fuck on with displaying artefacts for people to look at. If it's not a museum about the history of gender identity or similar, this stuff is an irrelevant waste of time.

The definition of sex in the Equality Act is binary and does not include intersex or non-binary people. Therefore, this raises the question of how audiences who identify as intersex or non-binary can be included and represented in museums.

The Supreme Court judgment has literally no impact for people with DSDs or people who believe they are neither male nor female. The situation for them today is exactly the same as it was before. What exactly do you want the EHRC to address in respect of these groups?

At a time when society is experiencing increasing polarisation and challenging issues, museums can play a role in delivering social justice, bringing us and our communities together, actively breaking down barriers and fostering conversation and reflection.
The MA’s Museums Change Lives campaign highlights how museums across the UK are doing this by working with community partners, listening to and acting on their priorities, and setting common goals to achieve more inclusive and equitable spaces. These partnerships mean that museums of all sizes are using their spaces and collections to make a positive difference to people’s lives by working collaboratively with community groups, health charities and other third-sector organisations.
For example, the Unicorn exhibition at Perth Museum centred local LGBTQ+ stories. As part of an exploration of Scotland’s national animal, the exhibition focused on the unicorn as an LGBTQ+ symbol. The exhibition was a critical and commercial success and created a safe, relevant and celebratory space for LGBTQ+ people in Perthshire. Had the museum not respected the pronouns and identities of community participants or excluded participants from using certain facilities, they likely would have caused reputational damage, isolated the LGBTQ+ community and become an unwelcoming and potentially unsafe space for LGBTQ+ people.

Blah-di-blah-di-blah.

The guidance suggests that allowing trans people to use toilets that reflect their gender identity would put organisations at risk of legal consequences.

There is absolutely no such thing as a toilet which reflects any kind of gender identity.

However, it would be humiliating and distressing for a trans person to be forced to use toilets that do not align with their gender.

It's humiliating and distressing for women and girls to find men in their toilets.

We think it would be inappropriate for museums to ask staff, volunteers or visitors about birth sex as this might violate trans people’s human rights to privacy. It would also be impractical for museums to do this without causing offence, distress or discrimination. Asking museum staff to question a person’s sex would likely result in them having to profile visitors based on appearance. It asks museum staff to actively exclude visitors from certain facilities such as toilets which would likely cause harm and create a negative visitor experience.

Why do you imagine you might need to do this? Surely only if you receive reports that someone is using toilets for the opposite sex? Can't we just trust trans people to respect the law? Create additional gender neutral toilets if you think this will be a problem.

Trans people have historically been excluded from museum collections and spaces, therefore, as a sector we need to be working to remove barriers to access rather than creating additional barriers.

Umm, what? Are you suggesting that your members have historically banned trans people from entering their premises? Huge news, if true. That sounds very much like a you problem.

We encourage museums to create welcoming spaces for visitors and we believe it would be unethical and impractical for museums to gatekeep who can access services, events and toilets.

Museums should be welcoming spaces for women and girls who don't feel comfortable with men in their toilets too.

Ethical concerns aside, museum staff are overstretched and underfunded so would not have the capacity or resource to employ staff to check the birth sex of every visitor who needs to use the toilets. It is impractical to ask visitors to carry identification of sex at birth with them in order to access facilities and services.
We are concerned by the suggestion of using birth certificates to prove someone’s sex. Many people do not know where their birth certificate is, and many people such as tourists and refugees may struggle to provide a birth certificate. Overall, it is at odds with museum practice which seeks to improve access and participation in museums.

Christ, what drama llamas.

They seem utterly unaware of the fact that all the problems they think will occur could be resolved by (a) their members providing additional unisex toilets and (b) trans people respecting the law.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/07/2025 16:14

Tecklefancier · 30/07/2025 15:05

First time post on the board. I have worked as a volunteer in a small local museum since it first started ten years ago. There was a lovely atmosphere and many visitors commented on their warm welcome. Now a sticker appeared on the window with a rainbow flag and a LGBTQ+ welcomed here. I felt that it was sending a message that people with gender critical views were not welcome. The museum director was very unsympathetic to my views and came out with all the usual slogans such as persecuted minority and insisted that I did not discuss the matter with any other volunteers. I am very sad to lose my connection with the museum which I really enjoyed but I felt I had no choice.Im very sad.

Im sorry - that must have been really difficult xx