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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What will happen when the EHRC Code of Practice is released?

148 replies

ItsCoolForCats · 28/06/2025 08:22

And is approved by Parliament. More protests? More moobs on the streets? Will organisations follow the law now that they can no longer say they are waiting for the EHRC? Will we ever go back to 'normal'?

OP posts:
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Datun · 28/06/2025 16:46

DiamondThrone · 28/06/2025 16:08

I reckon he noticed a couple of buzz (see what I did there) phrases and threw them back at us, not realising that we understand and care about them deeply.

Still, nobody expects logic or intellectual rigour from these ideologues.

I thought exactly the same thing.

Plus, he had to think of something that was directly applicable to women, without comparing them to men, like, say, the gender pay gap. Or male violence.

Demanding access to vulnerable women and children is a little harder, when your argument is to accuse women of disregarding male violence!

'Don't mention the power differential, it makes it harder to disguise the coercion'.

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2025 16:49

borntobequiet · 28/06/2025 15:53

I just did a Google search for “vaginal mesh” and “Mumsnet” and got literally pages of relevant results.

If you search just my user name alone and things related to maternity and childbirth, I think you'd get more hits than that... But still...

RhannionKPSS · 28/06/2025 17:00

BeeSouriante · 28/06/2025 09:04

Ah, i see the morning seething hate is here.

EHRC guidance will get released, protests will continue, lobbying will continue, inevitably end up in court..and eventually the ECtHR. In the meantime trans people will still use whichever facilities are appropriate.

Eventually the moral panic will die down, then in 10-20 years you'll be pretending you were OK with trans people all the time, like you did the last time.

Edited

Grow up , there is no hate for anyone, just respect for the safeguarding of children, safety, privacy and dignity of women.

No one has ever, or will ever change sex, trans women are men, most are AGPs and should stop inflicting their kink in the rest of us.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/06/2025 17:04

BeeSouriante · 28/06/2025 14:57

There's so much here that I'll have to split up to answer and, honestly, given that, even with notifications reduced as far as I can (without just blocking them all) I have 30+ (most of which is crap trolling), don't be fussed if I don't get back after.

"Honestly Bee, the only issues any of us have with what trans rights activists are demanding are the degree to which physical treatments with very severe side effects are being used to allieviate mental distress, and the conflation of sex and gender such that female people's sex-based rights and language are for some reason getting mixed up with gender validation"

This is just not true:

(a) many GC activists are explicitly eliminationist in their words

(b) most GCs in my experience use ancient homophobic tropes and laughably bad pseudoscience to imply that trans women are a sexual threat whilst gleefully ignoring that the vast majority of us take medications that are used as chemical castration agents (i.e. testosterone blockers). This is a common tactic used by hate groups throughout history (Irish people in the US, Black people, gay men and lesbians etc etc) during moral panics.

(c) many GC activists have espoused that trans people should have fundamental rights removed - a notable one was JK Rowling when she, in an opinion piece in the Times (or Telegraph, I never remember) stated that trans people should not have the presumption of innocence, which is pretty disgusting and shameful. GCs have been VERY active in trying to stop 'trans-inclusive' events happening and have time after time have (badly) attempted to try and separate trans people from our LGB siblings (carelessly not understanding queer culture at all).

etc etc

Trans people have been using cross-sex hormones for most of a century and the evidence for any harm is scant and usually related to synthetics, which barely any trans people use anyway. It's notable that I never hear GC activists express concern about the use of synthetics with younger cisgender women (where they are still used a LOT) via BC. Neither did I hear GC activists talk about the vaginal mesh scandal and rarely the issues with poor hormonal care for women going thru menopause.

When I talk to my friends who are feminists, I feel educated by them about these and many issues, when I talk with GCs, it's crickets.

It's just concern trolling and for a 'movement' that states that it's based in feminism it sure is against bodily autonomy.

Trans people have been medically transitioning for most of a century, we're hardly a secret and the 'norm' is to accept that trans people move to their acquired sex. You can see such 'woke' publications such as the Sun and Daily Star in decades past seamlessly respecting trans people's names, pronouns and gender. Nobody (including trans people) said that trans men were exactly like men or that trans women were exactly like women, but that they were close enough and that was fine.

It is 'gender critical' (I wish it critiqued gender) ideology that is new, based on the unscientific and reductionistic mantra of 'sex is immutable' and contradicting most biologists' understanding of 'sex'. Obviously GC ideology comes from TERFism, but is pretty unrecognisable now from that.

I say this as I don't believe that GC ideology is anything more than a fancy label for a moral panic - TERFism was a thing..a very strange thing that most sane ppl would recoil in horror from, but GCism is just a mask for the lizard brain disgust that you and many people have about queer people...I know it well, I've seen it my whole life.

GCs show rarely show concern for women except when it comes to trans people - in my (queer) community there was far more talk and celebration over the recent decriminalisation of abortion amendment(s) than in all the GC spaces I know. Hell, you only have to look at these forums where the anti-trans forum is constantly abuzz whilst the feminism chat forum is, well, pretty dead..and even when something does appear, it often turns into 'about the trans'.

Furthermore, with the recent removal of protections from trans people (don't gaslight me, even Cunningham acknowledged it) - there was literally no mention of the effects on cisgender women in GC spaces - something that many (non GC) woman have expressed concerns about.

This is why we call you 'anti-trans' activists - just like the women in years past who would spread panic about predatory lesbians in changing rooms, it's never about protecting women, womanhood or 'sex-based rights', it's about that seething hate of difference.

Obviously trans people are a demographic and there are dodgy trans people like any group..hell I argue with other trans people all the time and I'm not averse to telling people off. Are there things that we could do better as a (very heterogeneous) community? Sure, but y'know it's kinda hard when you're being constantly demonised in the media to an insane level, when the mental health crisis is so bad that every day I expect to hear about more terrible misery or, gods forbid, another completed suicide, when your healthcare is in shambles and your rights are being removed.

Anyway, that's enough for now, sorry if that is offensive to you. Have a lovely afternoon.

Firstly Bee , thank you very much for replying. I do appreciate it.

Fundamentally, for all the words, all you seem to be saying is "I'm not a threat so let me in".

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of my point.

Female people exist and you are not female.

so while you have given me lots of reasons why you don't think I should see trans women as a threat (plus a fair few insulting assumptions about me by the way) you still haven't understood.

Lots of men are not a threat. We still recognize that female people have good reason to have female-only spaces, protections, opportunities and language, and you have not given me any reason whatsoever that supporting trans women has to mean destroying the things that support female people.

You don't think you are a threat because you won't sexually assault us, but by promoting the belief that womanhood is somehow determined by how you think and your personality and self image rather than the bald fact of the female body, you do hurt us.

We who are born female live our lives with the consequences of that. These female-only spaces and rights exist because of those consequences. They aren't just a bit of social whimsy, they have a purpose, and it is a purpose that is nothing to do with you and your gender. And when you ask society to pretend that the gender is all that matters because that's what you need to get what you want, you don't actually take those consequences away for us. You just destroy the things - the language, the rights, the social, legal and political recognition - we need to face them.

"I'm not a problem and I want in" may be a good enough reason for you but is not a good enough reason for women. If our rights are contingent on no man fancying overriding them they are not rights at all. Why do you have to be included in female only spaces when your "womanhood", whatever it is, does not rest on being female? What's the connection? What's the justification? Who else gets a pass? If gender is not defined by sex, which as a trans woman you surely do not believe, why does your gender give you any claim on the spaces and resources of my sex?

So again, since you are not female and never will be female, if society will accept you as a "woman" anyway, why is it so important to destroy female-only language, rights and protections?

(Most of your points aren't really relevant to this argument. However I am going to have to deal some of them because you have made some pretty nasty allegations and assumptions and they should not stand unchallenged. That's another post)

Haulage · 28/06/2025 17:05

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 10:41

I am in a grim kind of way entertained however by the round of frantic burble to address it:

Men: get undressed in front of me/give me access to your body to pee beside/strip search/shower with/do intimate care/etc etc
Women: No. I don't consent.

-but all the other women are doing it!
-all the nice fashionable women are doing it!
-only old stupid ugly women say no and want rights
-no one else wants rights but you, you weirdo
-the law says men can do this to you and you're not allowed to say no
-the law WILL eventually say men can do this to you and you're not allowed to say no so you might as well do it
-saying no is hate and evil and you're a nazi
-your reasons are rubbish and mine aren't
-here's some article or other made up by other men who want women to do it proving that women are happier when they do it
-feminism is absolutely all and only about providing men with your body
-I'm going to do it to you anyway
-do it or I'll pee/take my top off

100% accurate. It’s like a very quick time lapse of all the utter drivel trans indentified men (or their anti-women activist allies) have been squealing at us on here, and the internet in general, over the last decade! Grin

edit (in brackets)

frenchnoodle · 28/06/2025 17:07

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/06/2025 17:04

Firstly Bee , thank you very much for replying. I do appreciate it.

Fundamentally, for all the words, all you seem to be saying is "I'm not a threat so let me in".

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of my point.

Female people exist and you are not female.

so while you have given me lots of reasons why you don't think I should see trans women as a threat (plus a fair few insulting assumptions about me by the way) you still haven't understood.

Lots of men are not a threat. We still recognize that female people have good reason to have female-only spaces, protections, opportunities and language, and you have not given me any reason whatsoever that supporting trans women has to mean destroying the things that support female people.

You don't think you are a threat because you won't sexually assault us, but by promoting the belief that womanhood is somehow determined by how you think and your personality and self image rather than the bald fact of the female body, you do hurt us.

We who are born female live our lives with the consequences of that. These female-only spaces and rights exist because of those consequences. They aren't just a bit of social whimsy, they have a purpose, and it is a purpose that is nothing to do with you and your gender. And when you ask society to pretend that the gender is all that matters because that's what you need to get what you want, you don't actually take those consequences away for us. You just destroy the things - the language, the rights, the social, legal and political recognition - we need to face them.

"I'm not a problem and I want in" may be a good enough reason for you but is not a good enough reason for women. If our rights are contingent on no man fancying overriding them they are not rights at all. Why do you have to be included in female only spaces when your "womanhood", whatever it is, does not rest on being female? What's the connection? What's the justification? Who else gets a pass? If gender is not defined by sex, which as a trans woman you surely do not believe, why does your gender give you any claim on the spaces and resources of my sex?

So again, since you are not female and never will be female, if society will accept you as a "woman" anyway, why is it so important to destroy female-only language, rights and protections?

(Most of your points aren't really relevant to this argument. However I am going to have to deal some of them because you have made some pretty nasty allegations and assumptions and they should not stand unchallenged. That's another post)

Bee understands perfectly, but you have to understand the transwomans "needs" are more important than your rights.

Why that is nobody will say...

Because women as a sex class aren't really human, women is a feeling....

dynamiccactus · 28/06/2025 17:12

There has been a lot of whining on LinkedIn about the six week consultation rather than 12. And I know there have been some legal proceedings too.

What do the TRAs need 12 weeks for, that they can't produce in six?

RhannionKPSS · 28/06/2025 17:13

Trans identifying men should not be in women’s singe sex spaces NOW. They should never have been in Women’s single sex spaces EVER.

Any anger they feel should be directed to Stonewall and the other various organizations and individuals who misled them and who lied their them.

Stop blaming women for this situation

WithSilverBells · 28/06/2025 17:29

PriOn1 · 28/06/2025 15:31

@FlirtsWithRhinos “Hey Bee, what about women? Do you ever think about them? Don’t they deserve rights too?

Bee: You lot are horrible and want to kill us all. You’re ignorant and don’t understand science. You’ve removed my rights. You don’t care about women. Trans people are much nicer and talk about women all the time. Trans people, well there might be a couple of dodgy ones, but really it’s all just your fault for demonizing us.

🙈

Edited

Bee is not capable of understanding Flirts' argument, because Bee does not really 'see' us.
That is how we know that, despite all his efforts, Bee is still a male.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/06/2025 18:26

So to the gish.

(a) many GC activists are explicitly eliminationist in their words

Can you please define what you mean by "eliminationist" here? I realise it's the latest buzzword in TRA circles in the ongoing project to smear female people asking to keep our sex-based rights, protections, opportunities and language as something akin to - well, atrocities which I'm not going to both dignify or minimse by naming in this contxet - , but what do you mean when you use it in this context?

Surely you cannot be suggesting that if female-only sex-based rights, protections, opportunities exist, trans people are eliminated? Surely a trans woman is still a trans women whether or not they ever set foot in a female-only space? Surely your inner identity as a woman is not dependant on whether or not you are currently being allowed to perform as a member of the opposite sex? I'm certainly still female whether or not I have access to female-only language, resources or protections. I don't need these things to be female. I am female anyway. So without them I am still female, I just have less protection against the risks and challenges that come with being female in this society. Which is, of course, the whole point of why we want to keep them.

And as I'm sure you well know, "GC" is not a catch all term for people saying no to trans expansionism. It means critcism and rejection of gender roles as a whole. Yes trans gender roles, being gender roles, come under that but it's not the trans that is the issue, it's the gender. There are groups who disagree with trans genderism for other reasons but they are not gender critical, they are gender confirminst. They would reject gender critical analysis and likely see GC feminists as just a big an issue as they see transgender people. You appear to be, entirely accidentally I'm sure, getting these groups mixed up.

Which is a real shame since we should be allies here. It is so sad that the loudest voices in your movement are bullheadishly pushing this project of appropriating female-only resources for male people as a sort of backdoor route to trans support. It is really alienating so many people who would otherwise have been your allies. It would be so much more productive to support trans people directly by creating new physical and cultural spaces and acceptance for gender non conforming people.

So, given that you seem to be using both "elminationist" and "GC" incorrectly, I think unless you can give actual examples here I'm going to have reject this argument. On the plus side, if you were under the impresison it was true and not just throwing mud in bad faith, I am very happy to reassure you that it is not. You are perfectly safe from GC Feminists, we just do not accept the ideological gender based definitions and boundary redrawing that your movement demands to apply to female people's lives.

(b) most GCs in my experience use ancient homophobic tropes and laughably bad pseudoscience to imply that trans women are a sexual threat whilst gleefully ignoring that the vast majority of us take medications that are used as chemical castration agents (i.e. testosterone blockers). This is a common tactic used by hate groups throughout history (Irish people in the US, Black people, gay men and lesbians etc etc) during moral panics.

With the gentlest of rebukes, while you may not be a sexual threat, the verified and documented, even self documented, existence of men with fetishes around the performance of womanhood is a fact. So I ask you to try to think about this not just from your own perspective as one trans woman who would never do this, but from the perspective of women who may encounter many different trans women. Because if your project to invalidate female privacy and right to boundaries around our bodies suceeds we will have to deal with the full range of trans identifying men colonising our spaces and taking roles that give them access to our bodies. And believe you me, as a female person I can tell you that the men we least want to be in those spaces and roles are the ones who will be the fastest and keenest to be there. These men may not be you, but in your rush to claim what you want you are leaving the door open to a whole load of pain for women. Female people are, sadly, all too familiar with male people dismissing our experiences with men because they personally are not a threat - please don't be that person.

(Also, I think you are getting your slurs in a muddle here - how on earth do "homophobic tropes" get used to "imply that trans women are a sexual threat to women"? You'll have to show your workings on that one!)

But all that aside, we don't only differentiate between men and women where men may be a sexual threat, otherwise we would be splitting spaces by "virile men" and "everybody else" (although I suspect that may be a little close to the truth of how you at least do see the world?)

Female people exist. We have risk and challenges that male people do not. Yes, sometime that is a direct sexual threat, but there is so much that we have to deal with that comes to us because of the ages of sexism behind society's gender constructs and it is not fair on us to hand wave that away because it's in your way.

(c) many GC activists have espoused that trans people should have fundamental rights removed

No, GC activists believe trans people should not acquire additional rights and cross sex rights. Because what trans people want for themselves and believe about themselves has to be balanced against how those demands impact other people's rights.

Trans people have been using cross-sex hormones for most of a century and the evidence for any harm is scant and usually related to synthetics, which barely any trans people use anyway.

I wasn't just referring to hormones. The side effects of surgery are bad, especially for female people. But yes, the hormones do have side effects as well - elevated stroke risk for a start.

It's notable that I never hear GC activists express concern about the use of synthetics with younger cisgender women (where they are still used a LOT) via BC. Neither did I hear GC activists talk about the vaginal mesh scandal and rarely the issues with poor hormonal care for women going thru menopause.

With respect, you have no idea what GC women may also be working on because you have no idea who is or is not GC unless they are specifically speaking on that topic. Menopause care - hell yes it gets talked about! I think you may need to widen your filters. And the use of blockers in the short term to block puberty is very different to long term use and cross sex hormones.

But did it ever occur to you the reason you don't see as much online discourse about these things is that no one is trying to gaslight us that they are ok, or use them as a Trojan horse to undermine the moral case for female people to have sex-based rights, protections, and opportunities to counteract the sex-baswd risks and challanges we face ?

Trans people have been medically transitioning for most of a century, we're hardly a secret and the 'norm' is to accept that trans people move to their acquired sex. You can see such 'woke' publications such as the Sun and Daily Star in decades past seamlessly respecting trans people's names, pronouns and gender. Nobody (including trans people) said that trans men were exactly like men or that trans women were exactly like women, but that they were close enough and that was fine.

Ok, now I know you are not arguing in good faith. The language used by the press does not reflect a natural grassroots acceptance at all, it was a top down imposition by IPSO after backroom, secret lobbying (remember that? you are against it I believe?) by groups like Press for Change.

Now I will agree the "norm", or at least the aspiration, was to accept trans people as sort of honory members of the opposite sex, in the belief that there were very few, a Hayley Cropper or a Mrs Madrigal who was a gay man before transitioning, who definitely had surgery, and who genuinely empathised with and respected the people of the sex they wished to be accepted as. And crucially, acceptance was a privilege extended to them by the group they were imposing on, not a right to be demanded regardless of how it impacted and demeaned the original group.

Perhaps that was true, perhaps it was always an illusion. Whatever it was, it's gone. After terfisaslur.com and Isla Bryson and piss protests and trans women in women's sports and so many angry shouting men drowing out women's voices, women know too much now to trust in the good faith of trans women any more.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Trans women are now going to have to justify their demands with more than just #BeKind. You need to make the case not just that you don't want to be with the other men, but why it is justified to treat you like you are female when you are not. You need to make that case why it is so imortant to do this that is is reasonable for all female people to lose their sex-specific language, rights, even voice in order to acomodate it.

It is 'gender critical' (I wish it critiqued gender) ideology that is new, based on the unscientific and reductionistic mantra of 'sex is immutable' and contradicting most biologists' understanding of 'sex'. Obviously GC ideology comes from TERFism, but is pretty unrecognisable now from that.

sigh. And we come back to this stupidity.

I'm sorry to be harsh but I am so sick of this.

Female people exist.

You can drag any number of rare DSDs out of the medical books to tell me "its not that simple". You can even argue that society should have additional social sex classes for them beyond the scientific binary. None of that changes the fact that give or take 50% of the population are recognised as female the day they are born and continue to be so throughout their lives.

We know what sex we are. And the people we encounter in our lives generally also know what sex we are, and that has direct consequences for us, and it is not fair to pretend that this is not true or that edge cases make it all sooooooo complicated we can't possibly have single sex protections that may not be 100% scientifically accurate but are 99% effective and sure as hell work well enough to be much much much better than having none at all.

I say this as I don't believe that GC ideology is anything more than a fancy label for a moral panic - TERFism was a thing..a very strange thing that most sane ppl would recoil in horror from, but GCism is just a mask for the lizard brain disgust that you and many people have about queer people...I know it well, I've seen it my whole life.

The thing is, I know myself. So I know this is not true of me. And since you do not know me to make these claims to me, I can only conclude you are not talking to me at all here, but playing to the gallery, trying to invoke some imaginary evil to allow you to dismiss women's objections to your colonisation,

So I will also play to that gallery and say loud and clear that it is disgusting that you are attempting to claim that the only reason female people, who have through history been abused, marginalised, sexualised, exploited, belittled, talked over, owned by male people, could ever have to want physical and cultural spaces away from male people, want even the language to differentiate ourselves from male people and to speak of fenale specific experiences, is because we - checks notes - have a "lizard brain disgust about queer people".

Yeah mate, that's the only possible reason. Sure.

GCs show rarely show concern for women except when it comes to trans people - in my (queer) community there was far more talk and celebration over the recent decriminalisation of abortion amendment(s) than in all the GC spaces I know. Hell, you only have to look at these forums where the anti-trans forum is constantly abuzz whilst the feminism chat forum is, well, pretty dead..and even when something does appear, it often turns into 'about the trans'.

And again, you have no idea who is GC and what they are doing when they are not talking about issues that concern you. My practical feminism is done out in the community, supporting, mentoring and protecting women. And despite TRAs wanting to keep drag the debate to toilets, I really, really care that the support I give to women - that I feel able to give to women exactly because of our common experiences of sex-based risks and discrimintaion and socialisation - can continue to be given on the basis of our shared sex.

And for what it's worth, on the abortion topic, I have consciously stepped out of online discource because I am very worried that the UK, where for decades abortion rights were in practice a done deal, has imported from the US the idea that these are someting to be reopened and redebated. Yes I'm glad the decision went the way it did, but I believe the tribalism of the radicalised online Left and their desparate urge to find someone to fight is going to backfire very badly by opening the door to the real hard right. Not the boogymen you pretend to see behind gender critical feminists but the real ones who would love to stoke up the same divisions in the UK that they have in the US.

Furthermore, with the recent removal of protections from trans people (don't gaslight me, even Cunningham acknowledged it) - there was literally no mention of the effects on cisgender women in GC spaces - something that many (non GC) woman have expressed concerns about.

This is why we call you 'anti-trans' activists - just like the women in years past who would spread panic about predatory lesbians in changing rooms, it's never about protecting women, womanhood or 'sex-based rights', it's about that seething hate of difference.

You are fearing something of your own creation, the projection of your own fears onto anyone who says no to you.

I am me. I know these things are not true of me.

I don't hate different people. Most of my friends are weirdos. I don't hate male people, trans woman or otherwise. I don't hate anyone. I certainly don't hate people because of who they are, only ever what they do, and someone would have to hurt me or mine very very badly for me to hate them.

For me It is about women maintaining their sex-based rights.

I get that you need that not to be true. I get that you need to invent all the reasons in the world why that cannot be true, but nevertheless, it is.

Because Bee, disagreement is not hate. I don't hate you, I just think you are wrong.

I just believe female people have very good reasons to have female-only spaces, protections, opportunities and language.

And trans women, even the loveliest of trans women, are not female. Outside their own head, in the reality of the women they wish to impose themselves on, they are no closer to being female than any other man and none of your self centered arguments have given any good reason that women should pretend they are.

HardyNavyBear · 28/06/2025 19:21

Great points! Unfortunately your well reasoned thoughts will never reach Bee because Bee is a man and no matter what truths or science you throw at Bee, Bee will not believe because it doesn’t fit Bee’s delusion. The cognitive dissonance that permeates Bee and other TRAs is real and it is a complete waste of time using logic with them. They are men and they want access to our spaces and they will never see any of our points as valid because they are men.

MarieDeGournay · 28/06/2025 20:14

Many of the points in Bee's long post have been ably answered by other posters.
I'd like to pick up on :
GCs ......have time after time have (badly) attempted to try and separate trans people from our LGB siblings (carelessly not understanding queer culture at all).

I am part of LGB, and Bee, you are not my sibling.

My identity as a lesbian is about sexual orientation. Yours is not.
My identity as a lesbian is centred around women. Biological, natal women. Yours is not.
My identity expects that as a lesbian I will have the right to decide who my sexual partners should be, and that excludes biological males.
Your identity does not.
You don't understand lesbian culture at all.
You don't understand that being 'GC', i.e. critical of the enforcement of gender stereotypes, and 'lesbian' i.e. having Adult Human Females as our sexual partners, are not two different things.
You don't understand the reality of being a lesbian and being a woman, in short.

That's understandable, as you are neither; the longer the post, the more you display that lack of understanding about what reality is for 'GCs' and lesbians.

I don't hate you at all, Bee, not even a smidgeon of seething going on here, and I want you to have the same rights that everybody else has - 'to trans people their rights and no more, to women our rights and no less' - but don't get sentimental and maudlin over us being 'family' - you are not my sibling.

LGB✂T, because we are different groups with different identities, and different issues.

Haulage · 28/06/2025 20:32

Because Bee, disagreement is not hate. I don't hate you, I just think you are wrong.

I believe that actual hate would be preferred over indifference by Bee and his mates. Indifference provides such thin pickings to base an identity on.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/06/2025 21:16

What Haulage said. What these men hate people to think about them is “meh”.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/06/2025 21:23

PriOn1 · 28/06/2025 15:21

I didn’t make myself clear. It goes without saying that they are going for the appeasement option because they believe that small group of men will cause more problems to them than any number of women.

Exactly.

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 21:26

MarieDeGournay · 28/06/2025 20:14

Many of the points in Bee's long post have been ably answered by other posters.
I'd like to pick up on :
GCs ......have time after time have (badly) attempted to try and separate trans people from our LGB siblings (carelessly not understanding queer culture at all).

I am part of LGB, and Bee, you are not my sibling.

My identity as a lesbian is about sexual orientation. Yours is not.
My identity as a lesbian is centred around women. Biological, natal women. Yours is not.
My identity expects that as a lesbian I will have the right to decide who my sexual partners should be, and that excludes biological males.
Your identity does not.
You don't understand lesbian culture at all.
You don't understand that being 'GC', i.e. critical of the enforcement of gender stereotypes, and 'lesbian' i.e. having Adult Human Females as our sexual partners, are not two different things.
You don't understand the reality of being a lesbian and being a woman, in short.

That's understandable, as you are neither; the longer the post, the more you display that lack of understanding about what reality is for 'GCs' and lesbians.

I don't hate you at all, Bee, not even a smidgeon of seething going on here, and I want you to have the same rights that everybody else has - 'to trans people their rights and no more, to women our rights and no less' - but don't get sentimental and maudlin over us being 'family' - you are not my sibling.

LGB✂T, because we are different groups with different identities, and different issues.

I'm another lesbian. All of that.

.

JanesLittleGirl · 28/06/2025 22:43

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/06/2025 18:26

So to the gish.

(a) many GC activists are explicitly eliminationist in their words

Can you please define what you mean by "eliminationist" here? I realise it's the latest buzzword in TRA circles in the ongoing project to smear female people asking to keep our sex-based rights, protections, opportunities and language as something akin to - well, atrocities which I'm not going to both dignify or minimse by naming in this contxet - , but what do you mean when you use it in this context?

Surely you cannot be suggesting that if female-only sex-based rights, protections, opportunities exist, trans people are eliminated? Surely a trans woman is still a trans women whether or not they ever set foot in a female-only space? Surely your inner identity as a woman is not dependant on whether or not you are currently being allowed to perform as a member of the opposite sex? I'm certainly still female whether or not I have access to female-only language, resources or protections. I don't need these things to be female. I am female anyway. So without them I am still female, I just have less protection against the risks and challenges that come with being female in this society. Which is, of course, the whole point of why we want to keep them.

And as I'm sure you well know, "GC" is not a catch all term for people saying no to trans expansionism. It means critcism and rejection of gender roles as a whole. Yes trans gender roles, being gender roles, come under that but it's not the trans that is the issue, it's the gender. There are groups who disagree with trans genderism for other reasons but they are not gender critical, they are gender confirminst. They would reject gender critical analysis and likely see GC feminists as just a big an issue as they see transgender people. You appear to be, entirely accidentally I'm sure, getting these groups mixed up.

Which is a real shame since we should be allies here. It is so sad that the loudest voices in your movement are bullheadishly pushing this project of appropriating female-only resources for male people as a sort of backdoor route to trans support. It is really alienating so many people who would otherwise have been your allies. It would be so much more productive to support trans people directly by creating new physical and cultural spaces and acceptance for gender non conforming people.

So, given that you seem to be using both "elminationist" and "GC" incorrectly, I think unless you can give actual examples here I'm going to have reject this argument. On the plus side, if you were under the impresison it was true and not just throwing mud in bad faith, I am very happy to reassure you that it is not. You are perfectly safe from GC Feminists, we just do not accept the ideological gender based definitions and boundary redrawing that your movement demands to apply to female people's lives.

(b) most GCs in my experience use ancient homophobic tropes and laughably bad pseudoscience to imply that trans women are a sexual threat whilst gleefully ignoring that the vast majority of us take medications that are used as chemical castration agents (i.e. testosterone blockers). This is a common tactic used by hate groups throughout history (Irish people in the US, Black people, gay men and lesbians etc etc) during moral panics.

With the gentlest of rebukes, while you may not be a sexual threat, the verified and documented, even self documented, existence of men with fetishes around the performance of womanhood is a fact. So I ask you to try to think about this not just from your own perspective as one trans woman who would never do this, but from the perspective of women who may encounter many different trans women. Because if your project to invalidate female privacy and right to boundaries around our bodies suceeds we will have to deal with the full range of trans identifying men colonising our spaces and taking roles that give them access to our bodies. And believe you me, as a female person I can tell you that the men we least want to be in those spaces and roles are the ones who will be the fastest and keenest to be there. These men may not be you, but in your rush to claim what you want you are leaving the door open to a whole load of pain for women. Female people are, sadly, all too familiar with male people dismissing our experiences with men because they personally are not a threat - please don't be that person.

(Also, I think you are getting your slurs in a muddle here - how on earth do "homophobic tropes" get used to "imply that trans women are a sexual threat to women"? You'll have to show your workings on that one!)

But all that aside, we don't only differentiate between men and women where men may be a sexual threat, otherwise we would be splitting spaces by "virile men" and "everybody else" (although I suspect that may be a little close to the truth of how you at least do see the world?)

Female people exist. We have risk and challenges that male people do not. Yes, sometime that is a direct sexual threat, but there is so much that we have to deal with that comes to us because of the ages of sexism behind society's gender constructs and it is not fair on us to hand wave that away because it's in your way.

(c) many GC activists have espoused that trans people should have fundamental rights removed

No, GC activists believe trans people should not acquire additional rights and cross sex rights. Because what trans people want for themselves and believe about themselves has to be balanced against how those demands impact other people's rights.

Trans people have been using cross-sex hormones for most of a century and the evidence for any harm is scant and usually related to synthetics, which barely any trans people use anyway.

I wasn't just referring to hormones. The side effects of surgery are bad, especially for female people. But yes, the hormones do have side effects as well - elevated stroke risk for a start.

It's notable that I never hear GC activists express concern about the use of synthetics with younger cisgender women (where they are still used a LOT) via BC. Neither did I hear GC activists talk about the vaginal mesh scandal and rarely the issues with poor hormonal care for women going thru menopause.

With respect, you have no idea what GC women may also be working on because you have no idea who is or is not GC unless they are specifically speaking on that topic. Menopause care - hell yes it gets talked about! I think you may need to widen your filters. And the use of blockers in the short term to block puberty is very different to long term use and cross sex hormones.

But did it ever occur to you the reason you don't see as much online discourse about these things is that no one is trying to gaslight us that they are ok, or use them as a Trojan horse to undermine the moral case for female people to have sex-based rights, protections, and opportunities to counteract the sex-baswd risks and challanges we face ?

Trans people have been medically transitioning for most of a century, we're hardly a secret and the 'norm' is to accept that trans people move to their acquired sex. You can see such 'woke' publications such as the Sun and Daily Star in decades past seamlessly respecting trans people's names, pronouns and gender. Nobody (including trans people) said that trans men were exactly like men or that trans women were exactly like women, but that they were close enough and that was fine.

Ok, now I know you are not arguing in good faith. The language used by the press does not reflect a natural grassroots acceptance at all, it was a top down imposition by IPSO after backroom, secret lobbying (remember that? you are against it I believe?) by groups like Press for Change.

Now I will agree the "norm", or at least the aspiration, was to accept trans people as sort of honory members of the opposite sex, in the belief that there were very few, a Hayley Cropper or a Mrs Madrigal who was a gay man before transitioning, who definitely had surgery, and who genuinely empathised with and respected the people of the sex they wished to be accepted as. And crucially, acceptance was a privilege extended to them by the group they were imposing on, not a right to be demanded regardless of how it impacted and demeaned the original group.

Perhaps that was true, perhaps it was always an illusion. Whatever it was, it's gone. After terfisaslur.com and Isla Bryson and piss protests and trans women in women's sports and so many angry shouting men drowing out women's voices, women know too much now to trust in the good faith of trans women any more.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Trans women are now going to have to justify their demands with more than just #BeKind. You need to make the case not just that you don't want to be with the other men, but why it is justified to treat you like you are female when you are not. You need to make that case why it is so imortant to do this that is is reasonable for all female people to lose their sex-specific language, rights, even voice in order to acomodate it.

It is 'gender critical' (I wish it critiqued gender) ideology that is new, based on the unscientific and reductionistic mantra of 'sex is immutable' and contradicting most biologists' understanding of 'sex'. Obviously GC ideology comes from TERFism, but is pretty unrecognisable now from that.

sigh. And we come back to this stupidity.

I'm sorry to be harsh but I am so sick of this.

Female people exist.

You can drag any number of rare DSDs out of the medical books to tell me "its not that simple". You can even argue that society should have additional social sex classes for them beyond the scientific binary. None of that changes the fact that give or take 50% of the population are recognised as female the day they are born and continue to be so throughout their lives.

We know what sex we are. And the people we encounter in our lives generally also know what sex we are, and that has direct consequences for us, and it is not fair to pretend that this is not true or that edge cases make it all sooooooo complicated we can't possibly have single sex protections that may not be 100% scientifically accurate but are 99% effective and sure as hell work well enough to be much much much better than having none at all.

I say this as I don't believe that GC ideology is anything more than a fancy label for a moral panic - TERFism was a thing..a very strange thing that most sane ppl would recoil in horror from, but GCism is just a mask for the lizard brain disgust that you and many people have about queer people...I know it well, I've seen it my whole life.

The thing is, I know myself. So I know this is not true of me. And since you do not know me to make these claims to me, I can only conclude you are not talking to me at all here, but playing to the gallery, trying to invoke some imaginary evil to allow you to dismiss women's objections to your colonisation,

So I will also play to that gallery and say loud and clear that it is disgusting that you are attempting to claim that the only reason female people, who have through history been abused, marginalised, sexualised, exploited, belittled, talked over, owned by male people, could ever have to want physical and cultural spaces away from male people, want even the language to differentiate ourselves from male people and to speak of fenale specific experiences, is because we - checks notes - have a "lizard brain disgust about queer people".

Yeah mate, that's the only possible reason. Sure.

GCs show rarely show concern for women except when it comes to trans people - in my (queer) community there was far more talk and celebration over the recent decriminalisation of abortion amendment(s) than in all the GC spaces I know. Hell, you only have to look at these forums where the anti-trans forum is constantly abuzz whilst the feminism chat forum is, well, pretty dead..and even when something does appear, it often turns into 'about the trans'.

And again, you have no idea who is GC and what they are doing when they are not talking about issues that concern you. My practical feminism is done out in the community, supporting, mentoring and protecting women. And despite TRAs wanting to keep drag the debate to toilets, I really, really care that the support I give to women - that I feel able to give to women exactly because of our common experiences of sex-based risks and discrimintaion and socialisation - can continue to be given on the basis of our shared sex.

And for what it's worth, on the abortion topic, I have consciously stepped out of online discource because I am very worried that the UK, where for decades abortion rights were in practice a done deal, has imported from the US the idea that these are someting to be reopened and redebated. Yes I'm glad the decision went the way it did, but I believe the tribalism of the radicalised online Left and their desparate urge to find someone to fight is going to backfire very badly by opening the door to the real hard right. Not the boogymen you pretend to see behind gender critical feminists but the real ones who would love to stoke up the same divisions in the UK that they have in the US.

Furthermore, with the recent removal of protections from trans people (don't gaslight me, even Cunningham acknowledged it) - there was literally no mention of the effects on cisgender women in GC spaces - something that many (non GC) woman have expressed concerns about.

This is why we call you 'anti-trans' activists - just like the women in years past who would spread panic about predatory lesbians in changing rooms, it's never about protecting women, womanhood or 'sex-based rights', it's about that seething hate of difference.

You are fearing something of your own creation, the projection of your own fears onto anyone who says no to you.

I am me. I know these things are not true of me.

I don't hate different people. Most of my friends are weirdos. I don't hate male people, trans woman or otherwise. I don't hate anyone. I certainly don't hate people because of who they are, only ever what they do, and someone would have to hurt me or mine very very badly for me to hate them.

For me It is about women maintaining their sex-based rights.

I get that you need that not to be true. I get that you need to invent all the reasons in the world why that cannot be true, but nevertheless, it is.

Because Bee, disagreement is not hate. I don't hate you, I just think you are wrong.

I just believe female people have very good reasons to have female-only spaces, protections, opportunities and language.

And trans women, even the loveliest of trans women, are not female. Outside their own head, in the reality of the women they wish to impose themselves on, they are no closer to being female than any other man and none of your self centered arguments have given any good reason that women should pretend they are.

Thank you for this. I wish that I had your discipline, focus and mastery of thought to produce this reply.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 29/06/2025 09:21

dynamiccactus · 28/06/2025 17:12

There has been a lot of whining on LinkedIn about the six week consultation rather than 12. And I know there have been some legal proceedings too.

What do the TRAs need 12 weeks for, that they can't produce in six?

You've seen the length of bee's posts. And Judith Butler's sentences. Walls of nonsense take a long time to type.

TheOtherRaven · 29/06/2025 12:06

Yes. And precision of message, and being able to speak and write in plain laymen's terms, takes intelligence, communicative skill and honesty. Accessible, plain English means that the message is the communicative intent, rather than the manipulative effect of a wall of emotive and pseudo-intellectual burble.

StellaAndCrow · 29/06/2025 12:17

I responded to the EHRC consultation as an individual, but didn't contribute to my work's submission (which could indeed be a submission).

I work for a large NHS trust - submissions were sought in small print via the LGBTQ+ network via their transactivist chair.

I thought about it for a long time, but in the end couldn't imagine how the response to the consultation would work. And thought that if the trust want to put their name to something ridiculous then I don't want to be a part of it; they can dig themselves out of that one.

Beowulfa · 30/06/2025 08:54

TheOtherRaven · 29/06/2025 12:06

Yes. And precision of message, and being able to speak and write in plain laymen's terms, takes intelligence, communicative skill and honesty. Accessible, plain English means that the message is the communicative intent, rather than the manipulative effect of a wall of emotive and pseudo-intellectual burble.

Didn't the Supreme Court judgement specifically thank the FWS legal team for the clarity and precision of their arguments?

I guess it was in stark contrast to the woo-waffle from the other side that they had to wade through.

HermioneWeasley · 30/06/2025 22:22

Beowulfa · 30/06/2025 08:54

Didn't the Supreme Court judgement specifically thank the FWS legal team for the clarity and precision of their arguments?

I guess it was in stark contrast to the woo-waffle from the other side that they had to wade through.

They did indeed. I think they specified the coherence and cogency.

from the Supreme Court that is the highest possible praise.

KnottyAuty · 30/06/2025 22:50

Beowulfa · 30/06/2025 08:54

Didn't the Supreme Court judgement specifically thank the FWS legal team for the clarity and precision of their arguments?

I guess it was in stark contrast to the woo-waffle from the other side that they had to wade through.

Wasn't it the flow charts that beautifully illustrated the idiocy?

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