"We have always been here"

[DiamondThrone]

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

Oh good, a chance to link to this wonderful song sung by the wonderful Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill

I always think that the lady in London was a bit of a spoilsport,and didn't know what she was missing And I love that the fair maid is happy to put off my hat and feathers and I'll run the rigging again.

Except in Ireland where they're makey-uppy. As Marie may have pointed out, I haven't finished rtft yet.

They actually state they have been here for ever on this island

So Jeanne declared in her first meeting with the Dauphin that she was ‘la Pucelle’ (Pucelle was a term for young women of marriageable age who were virgins).

The whole point about Jeanne was that she was a ‘Pucelle’, and from peasant stock, so the most unlikely person for God to nominate to clear the English from France. So her initial success was not so much a freak of nature, but a divine miracle.

Although her voices had told her to wear mens’ clothing, she always slept in the women’s quarters whilst not on campaign, and the other women and girls treated her as female.

I’d say makey-uppy too! Yorkshire. The D in Madey-uppy sounds wrong to me, too long a sound.

That's really interesting. With a bit of (note: not much) wider reading, this does look like a possible example of the adoption of the westernised concept of trans as a descriptor by a long-standing cultural group in their efforts to seek greater societal acceptance.

As I say upthread, there are no absolutes in this debate, with exceptions as likely to prove the rule as to dispute it. I'd say this particular exception "proves" the rule in that the sistagirls are apparently all gay, so they don't correspond neatly to the far wider-ranging westernised concept of transgenderism, but may embrace this as an umbrella term that could be seen to encompass them and thereby contribute to asserting their own legitimacy. Which is great.

My belief is that all distinct groups should be be recognised, as long as asserting their own legitimacy doesn't diminish or negate recognition of another: in the case of the sistergirls, a group appears to have adopted the term trans to assert their own commonality. Women as a a group similarly entitled to assert our commonality, too, in, conversely, rejecting our own dissolution via the vocabulary of trans.

To each their own ears.

I know I've heard * use the exact phrase "madey-uppy" on QI, and it appealed to my barbarian tongue.

"Makey uppy" ? (Rolls it around in head).

No.

I guess it's the years of Southern living.

There is of course the obvious point that if there were cultures where trans women were 100% accepted as women we'd never know because they'd not have different words or customs for them.

So anytime someone points to a group of men in another culture or time and says "look! They have trans women!", IMO they are kind of proving that they don't.

Gender non-conforming men? Sure. A cultural practice of defining them as "not quite men", even "kind of women, sort of, with some different rules though"? Maybe. But actual "we are Women! Welcome in women's spaces! Able to speak as and for women! So much the same they don't even have the language to separate us!" Uh, no.

Without writing, we have almost no idea what people thought.

With writing we have even less 😀

The only truth - as you will even have - is in archaeology. Things in their place in the ground that can be used to create a framework to hang hypotheses on. But ultimately you may only ever reach a truth that "this thing has been here since <insert appropriate timeframe>". Was it dropped ? Placed ? Lost ? Deliberate ? Did the leaving of human hands involve any ritual*.

*somewhere an archaeologists has just stepped in a fresh turd

Without writing, we have almost no idea what people thought.

This is true. I'm thinking more of cultures where we have writing or other types of recording, either their own or someone else's observations. If there's enough info to say "this culture has a group of men who were treated as if they were women", the mere fact you know that they were men is proof that that culture recorded them in a different way to actual women and therefore they don't actually align to the modern "trans women are women" concept

We have written records going back to the iron age and earlier, and written records of oral memory going back a very long time before that.

Distinct lack of rainbows and men thumping around demanding to pee in women's spaces. Doesn't appear anywhere in the pyramid hieroglyphics at all, nor the Dead Sea scrolls, the Rosetta stone is completely bereft of trans positive messaging.

We have written records going back to the iron age and earlier, and written records of oral memory going back a very long time before that.

Doesn't make them right 😀

I am always struck that the Bible has no trans-ing, the male temple prostitutes remain male, Judith and Jael are women with a sword and a tent-peg respectively.

Being too modest to say it myself I've been waiting a long time to read The only truth - . . . . . - is in archaeology.

Archaeologists, the ultimate arbiters of what is true.

Even before we decide which Bible 😀 we remember it is a book with talking snakes and parting seas. I wouldn't trust any recipes in there.

Only ONE talking snake. And one talking donkey. And no gender at all.

I don't mind about the parting seas, Exodus describes a very seismically active landscape, which although bleak and unforgiving is in some ways quite attractive, just imagine the ground opening up and swallowing everyone who'd been dissing you. Tsunamis no problem.

Yes, that really happened 😀

Where's the talking donkey? I can only think of the census journey - does he complain Mary's too heavy? Can't be right - smacks more of toddlery nativity than biblical scripture... Sounds a bit makey-uppey, in fact!

Trust me, there's as much misinterpretation and spurious bullshit in archaeology as in any other humanities discipline 😭

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey.

It's not recorded that the donkey said anything, but Chesterton filled the gap in a makey-uppy-poeticy way:

The Donkey

When fishes flew and forests walked
And figs grew upon thorn,
Some moment when the moon was blood
Then surely I was born.

With monstrous head and sickening cry
And ears like errant wings,
The devil’s walking parody
On all four-footed things.

The tattered outlaw of the earth,
Of ancient crooked will;
Starve, scourge, deride me: I am dumb,
I keep my secret still.

Fools! For I also had my hour;
One far fierce hour and sweet:
There was a shout about my ears,
And palms before my feet.

Sorry, this is an egregious derail! Can't help myself if a poem or a song seems relevant😟

Numbers.

She's an extremely good donkey and temporarily protects her owner, Balaam, from an angry angel. But our sins find us out eventually.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam

Not egregious at all! I'd forgotten that poem. I love it!

And Dean, I'd never heard of Balaam. Wonderful.

Have you never seen the documentary "Shrek" ?

An excellent point! So many talking donkeys!