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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We have always been here"

599 replies

DiamondThrone · 22/06/2025 14:34

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

OP posts:
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MarieDeGournay · 24/06/2025 10:09

Catiette, you are eloquent and perceptive and WATCH OUT THERE'S A HUGE COLEOPTEROID THINGY TRYING TO STEAL YOUR BRAIN!!😱

Glad to hear the dastardly plot was foiled, we need your kind of brain, inside a functioning head😃

Was the 'peak-nique' on a different thread?? I though it was earlier on in this one - sometimes these kind of did/didn't-is/isn't threads get a bit blurred.

We were blended into one amorphous mass of GCness on both threads but
I can't remember now - are we 'you people' or 'you folk' on this thread?
I wouldn't like to wrongly accuse a poster on this thread of dismissively calling GC feminists 'you people' when in fact they had called us 'you folk'..🙄

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/06/2025 10:14

springbirdss · 22/06/2025 20:43

what is the reproductive cell produced by 'intersex' people? there are ova produced by women, sperm produced by men, and...?

So people are defined by their reproductive cells?

the correct term these days is disorders of sexual development (DSD's). 'Intersex' is rather dehumanising - all humans have a sex, and it is either male or female.

That's why I said 'previously known as intersex conditions' in brackets....

There are lots of humans born for example with only one foot. Does this mean humans are not bipedal?

It means that humans don't have to be bipedal, yes!

As I’ve said many times, human beings are a bipedal species. The human being is not a species which has a spectrum of no legs to three legs. There are medical/surgical reasons for extra legs or lack of legs. Your argument is sophistry.

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 10:24

As I’ve said many times, human beings are a bipedal species.

Point of order. If you are using the term "species" then should you not be referring to H. sapiens ?

As you were 😀

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/06/2025 10:31

Probably, yes 😂

Igneococcus · 24/06/2025 10:34

what is the reproductive cell produced by 'intersex' people? there are ova produced by women, sperm produced by men, and...?
So people are defined by their reproductive cells?

People's sex is defined by their reproductive cells.

OldCrone · 24/06/2025 10:39

springbirdss · 22/06/2025 18:33

Well, plenty of bodies have been excavated alongside artifacts that were typically attributed to a different sex.

A famous example of this (although not British) is the 'Moche Lady of Cao' who was given the burial of an elite male warrior.

Obviously we can't know for sure how these people identified. But if you're interested in archeology you probably know that notions of masculinity and femininity have been quite fluid throughout the ages.

Just coming back to this comment because it shows how genderists are almost there, but just missing the point.

We can all agree that "notions of masculinity and femininity have been quite fluid throughout the ages". These are things that are socially and culturally constructed, and every society has their own idea of what it means to be masculine or feminine. They all have their own idea about what clothing/hairstyles/adornments are 'appropriate' for males and females, and about what activities and occupations are 'appropriate' for males and females. This is what 'gender' means.

So far from proving that trans people have always existed, all it shows is that 'gender' is a made-up construct which is not fixed and has no importance whatsoever, whereas sex is biologically determined, immutable and real.

sashh · 24/06/2025 10:56

I blame Blackadder.

If Kate had done what her father wanted instead of changing her name to Bob and going off to seek her fortune.

Catiette · 24/06/2025 11:02

Boiledbeetle · 23/06/2025 20:01

<Hits @Catiette over the head>

<Rummages around for a bit>

There you go Two loons

I should hasten to add it's not actually Catiette's brain as AI wouldn't let me do that as it "...nudged up against some content boundaries due to the brain removal element. If you'd like, we could reinterpret the scene to keep the humor and drama while easing off the surgical specifics—maybe the beetle accidentally grabs a jelly mold instead of a brain,..."

So yeah, have a brain shaped jelly!

What an image to wake up to (not too well, & a guiltily lazy morning after many bad nights...) I truly don't know what I love more - the idea, the pic... or AI's earnest attempt to meet a brain-snatching beetle in the middle with a sensitive compromise.

Outstanding. 😂

Edited to add... I think the disturbing choice of "rummaging"...

PS Cool word - found out the origins at some museum (Titanic-related in Liverpool???): https://www.etymonline.com/word/rummage

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 11:06

'gender' is a made-up construct

Point of order. All constructs are made-up 😀

And for some reason, I prefer "madey-uppy". I know it's childish, but I am sure it's not me being the child.

God(s). Money. The offside rule. All madey-uppy.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/06/2025 11:12

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/06/2025 10:14

As I’ve said many times, human beings are a bipedal species. The human being is not a species which has a spectrum of no legs to three legs. There are medical/surgical reasons for extra legs or lack of legs. Your argument is sophistry.

I think though I may be wrong here (and am, @Catiette-style, thinking this through as I go) that there is something in the PP’s assertion that humans don’t have to be bipedal. Not “something” as in they are possibly correct, but “something” as in a thread that runs through this type of argument that can be pulled on to see where it goes.

I think it goes something like this: way back in the dark ages, people were bad and did mean things to people who were “different.” Enslaved them, put them in human zoos, abandoned them as babies outside of nunneries, stoned them, called them names, stopped them getting an education. Etc.

We are now enlightened, and we accept that though some people may be born looking or acting differently from the norm, everyone is human and deserving of [respect, a chance, an education, not to be spat on]. And, if person A doesn’t give [respect, a chance, etc] to person B because person B looks or act differently to person A, then the problem lies with person A being ill-informed about the world.

I can see that it would be very easy to go from there with not the slightest hiccough to “humans don’t have to be bipedal.” Because the assertion that the PP is making is about a person’s worth as a human, not about their biology. So, the argument goes this way around: “just because a person only has one leg, doesn’t make them less than human,” or, to put it more bluntly “one-legged people are human.” What they don’t (or won’t) realise is the argument doesn’t work the other way. You can’t say “humans are one-legged.” You can say “some humans are one-legged,” but the template for human biology is two arms, two legs (and the rest). (There’s a big hole in their refusal to “see” the argument from that direction, which is: how, if humans didn’t have a default template, would people ever have known in the past who to persecute? But I digress.)

If you only ever come from the argument from the one side, the “acceptance,” and “be kind” side, then statements like “humans have two legs,” and “only women have uteruses (uteri?)” must seem cruel and reductive and sure, bigoted. Because “I know someone with only one leg, and they’re still human,” or “I know someone who had a hysterectomy and they’re still a woman.” How very dare you imply that they’re not.

Such people are not processing statements about biology as statements of fact, because when they hear “human” they think it means “humanity” or “deserving of respect.”

And to be fair, lots of people in those way back when days came right out and said that certain groups of people were not really human, and were thus “less than” people who were really human - the ones with two legs, etc. And they definitely used biology to make these arguments.

But where the PP goes wrong is they assume that

a) we acknowledge that it is wrong to make value judgments based on someone not matching the biological template of what a default human should be, and therefore

b) there isn’t in fact, a biological template of what a default human should be (that people sometimes deviate from).

And they miss completely that there is no value judgement in stating that fully-functioning humans, as mammals, come in very specific forms.

They are, in fact, the ones who are in some way continuing to connect biology and value. Most biologists, and I would hazard a guess GC people, are not.

Catiette · 24/06/2025 11:16

MarieDeGournay · 24/06/2025 10:09

Catiette, you are eloquent and perceptive and WATCH OUT THERE'S A HUGE COLEOPTEROID THINGY TRYING TO STEAL YOUR BRAIN!!😱

Glad to hear the dastardly plot was foiled, we need your kind of brain, inside a functioning head😃

Was the 'peak-nique' on a different thread?? I though it was earlier on in this one - sometimes these kind of did/didn't-is/isn't threads get a bit blurred.

We were blended into one amorphous mass of GCness on both threads but
I can't remember now - are we 'you people' or 'you folk' on this thread?
I wouldn't like to wrongly accuse a poster on this thread of dismissively calling GC feminists 'you people' when in fact they had called us 'you folk'..🙄

Damn, I miss the laugh emoji...

Never fear - the evil plot was apparently foiled by an unexpectedly empathetic AI.

I'm off to look for the peak-nique now... (slightly scared Boiled may be there eating jelly, though... 😬)

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/06/2025 11:17

Catiette · 24/06/2025 11:16

Damn, I miss the laugh emoji...

Never fear - the evil plot was apparently foiled by an unexpectedly empathetic AI.

I'm off to look for the peak-nique now... (slightly scared Boiled may be there eating jelly, though... 😬)

Edited

She is:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5358888-why-is-this-subforum-so-intent-on-removing-voices-that-dont-agree?reply=145207247&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

Page 16 | Why is this subforum so intent on removing voices that dont' agree? | Mumsnet

Like I've had three posts removed

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5358888-why-is-this-subforum-so-intent-on-removing-voices-that-dont-agree?reply=145207247

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 11:17

I think it goes something like this: way back in the dark ages, people were bad and did mean things to people who were “different.” Enslaved them, put them in human zoos, abandoned them as babies outside of nunneries, stoned them, called them names, stopped them getting an education. Etc.

"Dark ages" is frowned upon these days 😀

But following on from your point, it's also a fact that those societies as you describe it thought of themselves as the acme of civilisation. (although really, to qualify it I should have said "their civilisation".). In much the same way that we consider ourselves to be "civilised" in comparison to what came before.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/06/2025 11:23

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 11:17

I think it goes something like this: way back in the dark ages, people were bad and did mean things to people who were “different.” Enslaved them, put them in human zoos, abandoned them as babies outside of nunneries, stoned them, called them names, stopped them getting an education. Etc.

"Dark ages" is frowned upon these days 😀

But following on from your point, it's also a fact that those societies as you describe it thought of themselves as the acme of civilisation. (although really, to qualify it I should have said "their civilisation".). In much the same way that we consider ourselves to be "civilised" in comparison to what came before.

Sorry, sorry! How about, “in cave man days”? “Cave person days”? Want to use “when dinosaurs roamed” but I feel that might be pushing it a bit.

🤣

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/06/2025 11:26

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 11:17

I think it goes something like this: way back in the dark ages, people were bad and did mean things to people who were “different.” Enslaved them, put them in human zoos, abandoned them as babies outside of nunneries, stoned them, called them names, stopped them getting an education. Etc.

"Dark ages" is frowned upon these days 😀

But following on from your point, it's also a fact that those societies as you describe it thought of themselves as the acme of civilisation. (although really, to qualify it I should have said "their civilisation".). In much the same way that we consider ourselves to be "civilised" in comparison to what came before.

And oh, yes, they thought they were civilised, we think we’re civilised.

And that comes into the argument too, because if you are a person who doesn’t realise they can divorce the biology that was used to persecute people from the persecution, then you will see people who wang on about biology as being persecutors. So you remain the civilised one, and they, who are still messing around trying to organise the world based on biology, are the uncivilised ones.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 24/06/2025 11:27

springbirdss · 22/06/2025 19:24

Can you prove that they didn't though?

If you want a more recent example, in the middle ages a woman named Eleanor Rykener was discovered to have been born as John Rykener. She lived her entire adult life as a woman (with male partners) and was socially accepted as a woman. The document detailing the discovery about her birth was on display at the British Library recently.

Presumably the men he had relationships with knew (or soon discovered) that he was actually a man. I suspect most people who knew him were also aware that this was a homosexual man who found it more convenient or pleasing to pretend he was a woman for whatever reason.
This is (and evidently always was) a facet of homosexuality that is common throughout many patriarchal cultures. Men who are "not men" because they are gay are given (ironically) a sort of third space of their own.
This has nothing to do with modern transgenderism. No one thinks (or thought) they were actually women.

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 11:31

MistyGreenAndBlue · 24/06/2025 11:27

Presumably the men he had relationships with knew (or soon discovered) that he was actually a man. I suspect most people who knew him were also aware that this was a homosexual man who found it more convenient or pleasing to pretend he was a woman for whatever reason.
This is (and evidently always was) a facet of homosexuality that is common throughout many patriarchal cultures. Men who are "not men" because they are gay are given (ironically) a sort of third space of their own.
This has nothing to do with modern transgenderism. No one thinks (or thought) they were actually women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Read

Mary Read - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Read

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/06/2025 11:35

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 11:17

I think it goes something like this: way back in the dark ages, people were bad and did mean things to people who were “different.” Enslaved them, put them in human zoos, abandoned them as babies outside of nunneries, stoned them, called them names, stopped them getting an education. Etc.

"Dark ages" is frowned upon these days 😀

But following on from your point, it's also a fact that those societies as you describe it thought of themselves as the acme of civilisation. (although really, to qualify it I should have said "their civilisation".). In much the same way that we consider ourselves to be "civilised" in comparison to what came before.

I'm in my late 30s women's rights in many places have gone backwards within my living memory.

When was the acme in terms of women's rights in the UK? Was it perhaps in the 13 year window of time between men losing the right to rape their wives and them gaining the right to become women?

Catiette · 24/06/2025 11:37

@TwoLoonsAndASprout, your explanation above is fascinating, and makes so much sense - it's really helped me to better understand the possible thinking.

@SerendipityJane, I'm not sure it should be qualified as "their" civilisation in all cases, though. Maybe I've misunderstood - let me know if so. But...

If a civilisation thinks of itself as "best" in the context it best knows, isn't it (kind of by definition) unlikely to see any other civilisation as superior, at least without qualification? Plus - conflict, invasion & colonialism: the implicit justification behind the suppression of another people is the assumed superiority of one's own rationale for war. I know this is a bit clumsy/simplistic, but it does seem potentially applicable here, as I do see gender identity theory as a kind of cultural colonialism.

Gender identity theory disregards the need - the right - for Afghan women to name themselves, and also sets aside any obligation on us to name them as they see themselves (and even typing that, I'm wary that someone may come along to critique my arrogant assumption that none of them "self-identify" outside their sex "as non-binary" or similar, thereby again exposing the rather simplistic understanding of different contexts and cultures that others have explained so well above, and the unthinking imposition of this theory onto them).

I've also never seen a mixed-sex toilets advocate address why this should be normalised here while also acknowledging and condemning charitable campaigns to build single-sex toilets in developing nations. The unstated, implicit assumption seems to be that we've reached such a level of "civilisation" here that we can afford to sacrifice these more basic requirements in favour of superior values - like we can afford to lose the words man and woman themselves...

SerendipityJane · 24/06/2025 11:41

I'm in my late 30s women's rights in many places have gone backwards within my living memory.

I am quite a bit older, and I have been saying the same since the 90s. Even worse for the less able.

Apparently I'm wrong though.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/06/2025 11:43

@Catiette, thank you! It’s a half-baked idea that’s been rattling around in the back of my head for a while. I just couldn’t ever get my head round some of the GI arguments, and the PPs statement that humans are not bipedal really made something click. But I did have to type it out to see if it held water.

illinivich · 24/06/2025 11:44

TRA using people from the past to prove the transgenderism is innate often undermining their case.

Its clear from the majority of the examples that these people disguised themselves as the opposite sex to achieve something they couldnt otherwise - have careers or live with a loved one, for example. Or to disappear.

Is this what TRA stands for today - transition is a disguise to avoid something or to fit better into a career?

Catiette · 24/06/2025 11:44

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/06/2025 11:43

@Catiette, thank you! It’s a half-baked idea that’s been rattling around in the back of my head for a while. I just couldn’t ever get my head round some of the GI arguments, and the PPs statement that humans are not bipedal really made something click. But I did have to type it out to see if it held water.

An ocean of water - or bathtub, at least (it was a bit of an Archimedes moment for me reading it).

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/06/2025 11:46

Also @Catiette, yes! About the “our culture is superior and sufficiently advanced that we can now dispense with petty things like single sex toilets, which we fully campaign for in less superior and advanced cultures.”