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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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7
Keenovay · 04/07/2025 12:05

Keenovay · 19/06/2025 18:21

Hm, we obviously don't have all the facts from the article but this doesn't seem a great first test case for JK's fund. How can you prove the practice discriminated for a particular reason unless there's a smoking email trail?

I think the topic will attract a lot of puns/hilarity - it just seems a bit trivial in the grand scheme of things to me, but interested to know what others think.

Hopefully they're not barking up the wrong tree.

Well, I was sceptical but I'm delighted for her. Settling down with a cuppa to read the full judgement. Agree it begins like an Enid Blyton...

Taytoface · 04/07/2025 12:05

It is tough being a difficult woman. I can't imagine how tough it is to be, and continue to be a difficult, black lesbian woman. She could have walked away so many times, and we know her health suffered through this, but she kept going, and keeps getting it right.

Here's to all the difficult women out there.

TheAutumnCrow · 04/07/2025 12:08

To being A Difficult Woman Wine

MarieDeGournay · 04/07/2025 12:13

I confess I was a bit sceptical too, and could think of a couple of other reasons why the vet practice didn't want Allison as a client, and would characterise her as 'vile', but I wasn't sure that GCness was a winnable reason.

Clearly the timing and the suddenness of her 'dismissal' was significant - if she was 'vile', she had been 'vile' to them for 13 years before they took exception to her 'vileness' in 2023.

All the 'JKR? who she?' responses were so disingenuous, weren't they?🙄

I agree with PlasticAcrobat - "Jonty is an Airedale Terrier..." is a lovely way to start a judgement, and it's lovelier still that the story ends up with lashings of ginger beer being shared by Allison and her legal team😁

Arran2024 · 04/07/2025 12:14

Great result. Should Jolyon really be publicly criticising other KCs?

ScribblingPixie · 04/07/2025 12:14

TheAutumnCrow · 04/07/2025 11:43

The other thing I'm loving about Allison's latest win is how it underlines that women are entitled to judicial parity and legal remedy, irrespective of their perceived personality traits.

It has often seemed in the past that women need to pass some 'extreme likeability test' and possess a certain 'demureness quotient' to have equitable access to justice.

I agree. I really bridled at the bit in the judgement where she was criticised for her attitude on the day her dog was being euthanized. (Not the point but I did enjoy the evidence about Winchmore Hill's trans-activist canine-gym-owning influencer and the vet practice's attempt to cover up the fact he was a client.)

Mmmnotsure · 04/07/2025 12:47

@teawamutu
They really don't understand the concept of strategic litigation. 'Hahaha why are the terfs bringing a case about something so trivial o shit they've just established a rather important point in law it must be because the courts are all against us quick grab that bottle of piss and get your moobs out'.

Missing the 😂reply link again.

RedNine · 04/07/2025 12:52

Great update.

Now for the benefit of me the lurkers, could someone explain in really simple terms why this result is a game-changer please and thank you.

RoyalCorgi · 04/07/2025 12:57

teawamutu · 04/07/2025 12:01

Well that aged like milk, didn't it?

They really don't understand the concept of strategic litigation. 'Hahaha why are the terfs bringing a case about something so trivial o shit they've just established a rather important point in law it must be because the courts are all against us quick grab that bottle of piss and get your moobs out'.

So I'm guessing Jolyon has put out a post today admitting he was wrong and apologising to both Allison and Akua, right? Right?

Keenovay · 04/07/2025 13:02

Highly recommend reading the judgement. Aside from understanding how the result was reached, there are many dryly comedic moments and colourful supporting characters. I mentally cast Julie Walters as Mrs McGhie, who made the tea at a support group Allison and a practice receptionist attended.

"104. Ms McGhie says that she knew nothing of Ms Bailey’s belief or of her action against Garden Court Chambers or Stonewall. Ms McGhie said that she does not follow the news and uses Instagram only to keep track of her daughter. It is quite clear that the sex/gender debate had almost completely passed her by. She had heard of J.K. Rowling in the sense that she had read the Harry Potter books, but she had no idea, until this case, that Ms Rowling has well known gender critical beliefs. That said, she had heard the term TERF, but did not know what it stood for."

Someone needs to write a three act play. A Flea in Your Ear?

Joking aside, it was interesting to witness individuals being challenged about their supposedly neutral, kind, rainbow beliefs. Their shock at having to do so is almost palpable.

eg "41. ..she thought the views that she held were what many in society hold, those based on kindness and inclusivity. "

MarieDeGournay · 04/07/2025 13:04

RedNine · 04/07/2025 12:52

Great update.

Now for the benefit of me the lurkers, could someone explain in really simple terms why this result is a game-changer please and thank you.

My understanding is that it is a significant victory because its the first ever judgment that relates to GC beliefs+ the provision of goods and services.

lady69 · 04/07/2025 13:11

Great news!!

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 04/07/2025 13:25

Keenovay · 04/07/2025 13:02

Highly recommend reading the judgement. Aside from understanding how the result was reached, there are many dryly comedic moments and colourful supporting characters. I mentally cast Julie Walters as Mrs McGhie, who made the tea at a support group Allison and a practice receptionist attended.

"104. Ms McGhie says that she knew nothing of Ms Bailey’s belief or of her action against Garden Court Chambers or Stonewall. Ms McGhie said that she does not follow the news and uses Instagram only to keep track of her daughter. It is quite clear that the sex/gender debate had almost completely passed her by. She had heard of J.K. Rowling in the sense that she had read the Harry Potter books, but she had no idea, until this case, that Ms Rowling has well known gender critical beliefs. That said, she had heard the term TERF, but did not know what it stood for."

Someone needs to write a three act play. A Flea in Your Ear?

Joking aside, it was interesting to witness individuals being challenged about their supposedly neutral, kind, rainbow beliefs. Their shock at having to do so is almost palpable.

eg "41. ..she thought the views that she held were what many in society hold, those based on kindness and inclusivity. "

I agree - the judgement is very good reading. Straightforward, easily accessible and very clear.

And second your idea about a play. But beyond Julie Walter’s (excellent choice), who to play whom?

InvisibleDragon · 04/07/2025 13:36

Read the whole judgement - wow, that was a weird one! AB and 2 other witnesses attending the same support group was not something I anticipated!

CompleteGinasaur · 04/07/2025 13:39

Sharon C. Clarke for Alison?

EmptyPocketBlues · 04/07/2025 13:45

The one thing I don't understand is that AB emailed them on I think the 19th saying she wanted all Jontys records sent to another vet she had registered with as she wasn't happy with them so they sent her a termination letter on I think the 20th. So she had already told them she was moving vets so why was the termination letter wrong?

PlasticAcrobat · 04/07/2025 13:51

PlasticAcrobat · 04/07/2025 11:55

I love that the judgement begins with "Jonty is an Airedale Terrier...". Makes me feel like I am settling into a delightful Ladybird children's story.

my goodness, having now read the entire judgement it doesn't disappoint! Not so much a Ladybird children's story as an especially strange and deathless episode of Midsommer Murders.
And the narrator,Judge Holmes has an incredibly wry toneGrin.

On this issue of being a 'difficult' woman, in my (limited) experience, barristers are extremely.... let's say distinctive people. The one I have had more experience was cocky to an extent that I could barely tolerate, and people in the industry has told me this isn't unusual.

He was white, male and moderately upper-class so he breathed a degree of entitlement that, I think, made everyone around him just accept that he was totally allowed to be like that.

Different, of course, if you are a woman and black. You don't get the free pass; your tone is much more likely to be policed. And of course once people's backs are up, the frustration of being perceived in an unflattering light for behaviour that other people are allowed to get away with would probably lead to an ever more prickly style of interaction.

GhostOrchid · 04/07/2025 14:04

Having read the judgment, AB doesn’t come out of it in a particularly great light. And the vet practice doesn’t strike me as a hotbed of trans activism, but rather they failed to follow their own policies, and dislike of AB was likely intensified among a couple of key staff because of her GC views, which they lied unconvincingly about when cross examined.

PriOn1 · 04/07/2025 14:16

EmptyPocketBlues · 04/07/2025 13:45

The one thing I don't understand is that AB emailed them on I think the 19th saying she wanted all Jontys records sent to another vet she had registered with as she wasn't happy with them so they sent her a termination letter on I think the 20th. So she had already told them she was moving vets so why was the termination letter wrong?

If she was already leaving them, then sending her a termination letter was unnecessary. Most vet practices would simply heave a sigh of relief and hope the awkward client didn’t decide to return, I should imagine. Sacking her as a client, when she had already indicated she was leaving seems like an act of spite. I wonder how much it will cost them.

PriOn1 · 04/07/2025 14:26

GhostOrchid · 04/07/2025 14:04

Having read the judgment, AB doesn’t come out of it in a particularly great light. And the vet practice doesn’t strike me as a hotbed of trans activism, but rather they failed to follow their own policies, and dislike of AB was likely intensified among a couple of key staff because of her GC views, which they lied unconvincingly about when cross examined.

That seems a reasonable summary, having read the judgment as well.

As a vet, she does sound like a client who is difficult to please and perhaps rather quick to get upset when things are less than perfect. It sounds like the only other clients they’d got rid of were much worse. There are many, many mildly aggravating and difficult clients and very few are told to leave. I strongly suspect the judge has made the right call and that if she had been someone else, that letter wouldn’t have been sent, especially as she was leaving anyway.

It also seemed to me there were various tensions in the practice as well. It reminded me of some of the more toxic places I’ve worked in. The idea of working in a toxic practice with added genderwoo is making me feel happy I’m no longer in practice.

GhostOrchid · 04/07/2025 14:48

Yes, at best AB is direct with low tolerance for what she perceives as incompetence (and to be fair, small vet practices can be frustrating to deal with and this one seemed like it had a poor management culture), but I do regard her as something of an unreliable narrator with poor self-awareness and a tendency to create drama. That anecdote she told about Keir Starmer last year was bizarre.

But the vet practice didn’t behave well either, although no suggestion they would expel a pleasant client with GC views. I guess the lesson is, always follow your own policy.

KnottyAuty · 04/07/2025 14:59

teawamutu · 04/07/2025 12:01

Well that aged like milk, didn't it?

They really don't understand the concept of strategic litigation. 'Hahaha why are the terfs bringing a case about something so trivial o shit they've just established a rather important point in law it must be because the courts are all against us quick grab that bottle of piss and get your moobs out'.

Wave Train GIF by Avanti West Coast

Gah where is the laugh reaction when I need it!

I am so happy to hear this - congratulations Alison.
I thought we would need to wait years for cases to come through to get all this settled, but of course I had forgotten of the whole raft started 2 or 3 years ago which are all arriving at the GC station - woo-woo!

WandaSiri · 04/07/2025 14:59

"After all, we're just monkeys in shoes."
😂😂
Love it!

WandaSiri · 04/07/2025 15:04

Taytoface · 04/07/2025 12:05

It is tough being a difficult woman. I can't imagine how tough it is to be, and continue to be a difficult, black lesbian woman. She could have walked away so many times, and we know her health suffered through this, but she kept going, and keeps getting it right.

Here's to all the difficult women out there.

Sharon D Clarke to play Allison Bailey in the future West End musical...

WandaSiri · 04/07/2025 15:07

Allison Bailey has probably had decades of being doubted and disrespected, so I don't blame her if she can be a bit tetchy. She is brave and honest.