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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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32
Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 15:06

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 15:02

Not what I said but your way of communicating, say compared to Datun, is not to try and convince anyone but to point score. No one told you to stop posting.

This amounts to, you might be right but because you didn't say it in the way I demand you say it, I will just ignore you and mischaracterise what people are saying and keep posting misinformation without acknowledging that it was not information that was correct.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 15:08

Datun · 19/06/2025 15:06

Well J. K. Rowling, and everyone else in this, has been having this argument for years.

We've gone from A to Z a zillion times. It doesn't really work you just arriving at Y and saying well I don't think Z looks right.

everyone was nuanced to start with. Everyone was kinder easier, lighter. It doesn't work. None of it.

as I said, you're having a completely different argument.

You can't take an argument that has been honed over years, sometimes decades, with quite literally thousands of people, and costing quite literally millions of pounds, and take an aspect of it that you translate in an entire different way, because you're having a different argument, and say it's all wrong.

I don't really know how else to explain it. Both arguments are valid but we're on completely different trains. And you can't use one argument to fuel the other train.

Thank you Datun.

This point was raised pages ago, but obviously the people posting it didn't fit the 'I will read what they say' profile.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/06/2025 15:09

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 09:39

I understand that the term 'cis' is banned on this forum, so no, you can't.

It's not banned. It's fine to use it to refer to yourself if that is how you identify.

What may get deleted is using it to refer to a group of people on the assumption that they all identify as cis which many women find an offsensive framing imposed upon them, especially when it used to obscure the significant male > female social and physical power imbalances inherent in genderism by reframing both directions into the same cis > trans power imbalance.

MorrisZapp · 19/06/2025 15:11

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 14:58

I'm not a TRA and I'm not permanently on twitter. But if the GC movement really wants to include minorities, then actually listen and acknowledge the concerns rather than point score

The GC movement want to include GC people. We're fighting for women's rights, that's it. Join in or don't.

spannasaurus · 19/06/2025 15:11

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 14:48

But many people do accuse them of looking like and being men. That is the plight of many black female athletes. The fact is that black women will always be disproportionately targeted in such accusations because of racial stereotypes.

The image is a post Serena wrote precisely because the accusations of being a man got too much. To ignore that this is a huge issue that needs to be acknowledged when discussing how to deal with identification of biological males in women's sports, is to ignore the pervasive and ongoing impact of racism.

I named Serena and Simone because Ithought they had been accused of looking like men. My wording could have been better I should have said when people say rather than if people say.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 15:12

I think that if people choose to filter what they read through a filter of whether the person saying it is using kind language or not, then if they end up missing information, they have to accept it is their choice of filter that might be the issue.

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 15:13

BettyBooper · 19/06/2025 09:29

He was on Triggernometry podcast not long ago saying the trans thing had gone too far. He changes his mind according to his audience.

True. Was the Triggonometry piece before or after he didn’t get a part in the new Potter series? 🤔

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 15:14

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 13:54

Please tell us exactly what would have been acceptable in your opinion, how feminists should have alerted the public to the fact that Semenya was a male athlete and that the IOC rules were unjust.

Please give us the exact wording that you would find acceptable please, that would convince people around the world and sporting bodies that there is an injustice being done.

Could you please answer this @Christmasmorale . Because since you are here to educate us, this would be most useful.

Thank you

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 15:15

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 09:18

She handed Boy George his arse, so I look forward to it. These men must all have a humiliation fetish.

I.. think… we know.. they do… 👀

OP posts:
Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 15:15

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 15:13

True. Was the Triggonometry piece before or after he didn’t get a part in the new Potter series? 🤔

What was the line s he couldn't read

BettyBooper · 19/06/2025 15:18

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 14:48

But many people do accuse them of looking like and being men. That is the plight of many black female athletes. The fact is that black women will always be disproportionately targeted in such accusations because of racial stereotypes.

The image is a post Serena wrote precisely because the accusations of being a man got too much. To ignore that this is a huge issue that needs to be acknowledged when discussing how to deal with identification of biological males in women's sports, is to ignore the pervasive and ongoing impact of racism.

If only there was an easy test that could be taken once in lifetime to remove all doubt?

If only people would accept those results and stop fudging the matter 🤔

MorrisZapp · 19/06/2025 15:19

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 15:14

Could you please answer this @Christmasmorale . Because since you are here to educate us, this would be most useful.

Thank you

I'd like to hear the acceptable wording too.

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 15:20

Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 15:15

What was the line s he couldn't read

See @BettyBooper 08:31

OP posts:
FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/06/2025 15:22

LimeFinch · 19/06/2025 08:34

Wow. I can practically see the waving pitchforks and smell the flaming brands from here.

Threads like this really are a ghoulishly fascinating, and anthropologically interesting, study of the ignorant, hateful, pack mentality that has come to typify so many areas of the internet.

I'd give my own views on the estimable, esteemed - and universally beloved by thinking human beings - Mr Fry, but suspect doing so will only further enrage the witch-burning cultists.

Actually, it might be fun to do so anyway; in much the same way you might wind a toy and watch it trundle across the floor in monomaniacal obsession...

Hate to break this to you, but you are on the side of the witchburners.

Men supporting men to discredit a woman for saying things or even just knowing things those men don't want said or known has been going on forever.

Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 15:27

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 15:20

See @BettyBooper 08:31

Thanks

SternJoyousBee · 19/06/2025 15:29

Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 14:58

And I'm thinkingnow of that quote about why would anyone want to belong to a club that doesn't want them as a member. But I know trans people object to a ' third space '

They don’t just want to be a member of the club, they want to takeover the club and gave it centred on them and their wants/needs.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/06/2025 15:29

LimeFinch · 19/06/2025 10:17

You are either misunderstanding or deliberately misreading the point.

There is indeed a narrow ideology at work here, and it's alive and well on MN. And no, it is not feminism, despite the desperate attempts by many to claim it is.

Interesting to get clarification on how MN banning works, though; thanks.

Edited

Oh we understand what you meant, we just think you are wrong.

HTH.

viques · 19/06/2025 15:31

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 13:43

There are no TRAs on this thread as far as I can see. Just women who don't agree with everything JKR says. I can only speak for myself when I say this thread further highlights to me the stark difference in black and white women's lived experiences.

Telling me to care more about black women affected by Caster Semenya's inclusion over the racism she experienced, is like telling me to care more about the black people who have less access to national resources because of the black migrants seeking asylum. I care about both issues but in a very different way to how you will ever care.

It just makes no sense to me. And it screams of whitesplaining - somehow you can see the black plight better than I can. Somehow you are a saviour for black women who have been forgotten in our compassion for Semenya's experiences.

I am not saying Ms Semenya should be allowed to compete against biological women, but I am highlighting the treatment of her as a black person which is similar to many black women's experiences. I think those issues are important to acknowledge when discussing individual cases, because these individuals and the systems they are subjected to do not exist in a vacuum.

If I understand what you are saying, you are saying that many black female athletes are vilely accused of having masculine facial features and body conformation. And I agree with you, when this involves hugely successful and high profile female athletes like Simone Biles and the Williams sisters then it is very obviously well co ordinated abuse and primarily racist, not misogynistic, and needs to be challenged and refuted in the strongest possible terms. However , I really take issue with you when you extend this argument to include male athletes posing as female athletes and claiming that this is also proof of racism, I don’t think it is, I think it is proof that people don’t like cheats.

Where it again becomes racist is when the legacy of those cheating males becomes unfair suspicions raised against current female black athletes , primarily on the grounds that since fit well muscled black athletes running as females have previously been proved to be male, all fit well muscled black athletes running as females are also possibly male, which is clearly not true.

Semanya’s cheating has a long and bitter reach, not helped by people still denying that he cheated. The only way to counter this is to bring in sex testing for all female athletes and professional sportswomen, black and white. It becomes like drug testing, mandatory, with the advantage that sex testing is easier to regulate and administer than the very sophisticated way drugs cheats manipulate the system.

WestwardHo1 · 19/06/2025 15:32

JKR hasn't caused this backlash against trans people. People like Fry appear to misunderstand that. She has provided a voice for those who were thinking "hang on a minute..."

If there are bullies, bigots etc who are being mean to trans people, that's not her fault. She hasn't legitimised it. By saying this he is merely stoking the culture wars - that pervasive "Well if you think this then you must approve of these people" (insert bastard of choice) attitude. No, that's not how it works, Fry.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/06/2025 15:32

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:29

I know - point is that not having periods while competing at elite level would not immediately lead someone raised as a female to question whether they are in fact male.

Presumably one would have medical checks about the issue though?

If one believed one was female?

MarieDeGournay · 19/06/2025 15:36

I recall some time ago JKR responded to someone who tweeted that Serena Williams was built like a man with a photo of Serena and the message:

'she is built like a man.' Yeah, my husband looks just like this in a dress. You're an idiot."

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 15:38

SternJoyousBee · 19/06/2025 15:29

They don’t just want to be a member of the club, they want to takeover the club and gave it centred on them and their wants/needs.

Then when lots of people leave that club to start their own club again, they leave that club to force their way into the new club. No one is allowed a club that doesn’t have their dick in it.

OP posts:
Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 15:39

MarieDeGournay · 19/06/2025 15:36

I recall some time ago JKR responded to someone who tweeted that Serena Williams was built like a man with a photo of Serena and the message:

'she is built like a man.' Yeah, my husband looks just like this in a dress. You're an idiot."

😂😂

OP posts:
Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 15:44

maltravers · 19/06/2025 14:49

All of the above. We have single sex spaces to protect women from men. TW retain the same offending profile/strength/danger to women as men. TW should not be in female SS spaces, whether they authentically think they are women or are just chancers.

Thanks. I get what you are saying.Ive learnt a lot from this thread today.

SternJoyousBee · 19/06/2025 15:44

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 15:38

Then when lots of people leave that club to start their own club again, they leave that club to force their way into the new club. No one is allowed a club that doesn’t have their dick in it.

💯

I keep thinking of the lesbians who just wanted some spaces without males present. Not all spaces, one would probably have been enough, but that wasn’t good enough for TRAs. It has to be total capitulation or else they are being genocided 🙄

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