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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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32
Imnobody4 · 19/06/2025 15:46

Just seen this in the news. I've nothing to add to title of the thread, encapsulates my feelings perfectly.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 16:08

I wonder if this person contributed to the reason why they started testing for sex for athletes?

https://x.com/hecheateddotorg/status/1935518544030220327

"Yet, to this day, Walsh's legacy remains as one of history's greatest "female" athletes with media outlets vehemently defending him and still pushing this narrative over the truth"...

This is the reason that accurate and precise language has to be used.

If we cannot use accurate and precise language to describe the individuals that are causing harm to female people, it weakens our position.

This is why, if there is a way to describe the situation that is acceptable, we should have an example of it.

If there is a better way to make statements of fact while still being precise and accurate, I would welcome examples.

anniwilli1 · 19/06/2025 16:16

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Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 16:18

What is the determiner. Is it chromosomes. I did read somewhere that some scientists have done research that suggests there are male and female brains producing distinct categories of experience. Im not a scientist so i have no idea how that would work. The research is in its infancy. Could it be that the trans people were right all along and that 100 years from now there wont even be an argument.

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 16:20

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As Caroline Aherne said..

OP posts:
Brefugee · 19/06/2025 16:20

to get back to why Fry is problematic, and i see pp upthread mentioned Malcolm Clark's tweets, i came here to point that out.

Since not everyone is on twitter, or wants to give them clicks, here's the thread:

1./ Stephen Fry and Britain's Failure to Take Child Abuse Seriously. Our headlines are dominated by the scandal of institutions that refused to protect girls for fear of seeming "racist". My latest article suggests Stephen Fry's knighthood is from the same copybook. 1/of 21

2./ In a society that took child abuse seriously Stephen Fry's long track record of minimising child sexual exploitation would have disbarred him from the nation's top honour. In Fry's first play 'Latin' an adult teacher sexually abuses a 13 year old boy and takes him to Morocco.

3./ The boy writes back to his schoolmates praising the country which he claims takes a relaxed attitude to sex between men and underage boys. They petition to visit. Fry's interest in adolescent boys continues in 'Hippopotamus' in which a 15 year old has sex with adults.

4./ These abusive adults consider the sex so extraordinary they believe it has cured them of disease. There are endless descriptions by Fry of the 15 year old's naked body that culminate in a 3 page account of him having sex with a horse. I'll spare you the pornographic details.

5./ If this troubling attitude to child abuse was reserved for Fry's fiction perhaps it could be put down to some kind of dramatic license. Instead it seeps into Fry's public statements. In 2016 he told abuse victims to stop feeling sorry for themselves.

actually I'm going to stop there - it goes on and on and on.

Fry is well known to have bi polar, and he also loves the limelight. So - yeah, trying to stay relevant seems to fit)

Did he try for a part in the new series?

Gloriia · 19/06/2025 16:22

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Must be his dazzling personality and physique, nothing to do with his bank balance and connections of course.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/06/2025 16:22

FreezeDriedStrawberries · 19/06/2025 13:14

I'm assuming the poster means that the bigotry arguments always follow the exact same script.
Once you see how alike racism, homophobia, trans "issues" arguments are, (deliberately not saying transphobia as no doubt someone will go , wot, there's no such thing!" 🙄) you can't unsee it.
"Example of racism please?"
"Define racism"..."
etc
Identical.

The difference between them being that racism and homophobia are prejudices about what someone is, while the pushback against genderism is an objection to someone claiming to be what they are not.

No one cares that trans people and their allies have an inner belief that their soul or whatever it is a really one of the opposite sex. (Well to be fair I kind of do because it's horribly sexist, but as long as they can't impose their sexist ideas about what makes someone "really" a man or a woman on the rest of us it is their right to believe it).

What people push back against is the demand that this self-reported inner soul feeling be treated as if it makes the person actually interchangable with the opposite sex in areas where physical sex (not mental self image) is considered to be significant and relevant and at times, a factor in risk or in disadvantage that needs to be recognised and mitigated.

Saying "No" to that demand is entirely different to racism or homophobia.

Indeed, I would say Genderism itself is closer to racism and homophobia in that it takes something about a person's material reality and claims this determines who they are as a person, their tastes or abilities or aptitudes.

Whereas Gender Criticism says "Since there isn't a specific type of personality that is innate to a male or female body in the first place, there cannot be the possibility of it somehow getting into the wrong body. Being female comes with material physical and social risks and consequences. Whatever trans women are experiencing it's not being "really" female, it's not experiecing life as female, and it doesn't justify opening up female language, supports, rights and protections to accomodate it.

That's all.

Sometimes, to respond to people who challenge this and claim that if a man experiences life as a "woman" enough he is at least socially more aligned to female people than male, we need to give examples of just how different some of these men who claim to believe they are women's idea/experience of "womahood" is, which is where things like AGP come in.

And sometimes, to respond to people who claim trans identities must be more than this because they are observed in young children, we need to give examples of children being - I'll avoid the G-word - strongly influenced to interpret very common childhood and adolescent feelings through a one sided and fake "scientific" gender narrative which is where concerns about children and activist overreahc in schools come in.

And sometimes, to respond to people who claim trans women could never be a risk to women, we need to talk about rapes and assaults and threats which is where screenshots like www.terfisaslur.com and people like Dana Rivers and Isla Bryson come in.

But no one is saying these things are the definition of trans women, or are true of all trans women, simply that as long as they are true of any trans women, the #bekind belief in the harmlessness and vulnerability of trans women that underpin many well meaning trans allies is sadly not true in all cases, and that following this path does do genuine social and at times even physical harm to women.

Brefugee · 19/06/2025 16:27

i don't think there was any need for what @anniwilli1 said and have reported that.

SternJoyousBee · 19/06/2025 16:27

Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 16:18

What is the determiner. Is it chromosomes. I did read somewhere that some scientists have done research that suggests there are male and female brains producing distinct categories of experience. Im not a scientist so i have no idea how that would work. The research is in its infancy. Could it be that the trans people were right all along and that 100 years from now there wont even be an argument.

No

Abhannmor · 19/06/2025 16:30

Fry was very good in Blackadder and in his series with Hugh Laurie. Not much of an actor and has reinvented himself as a professional posho , voice over king and national treasure. If Elton passes on Fry will be Keeper of the Royal Swizzle Stick or whatever. I doubt he understands much about gender ideology. He just isn't as intelligent as he thinks or as he makes others think.

DiamondThrone · 19/06/2025 16:33

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 14:58

I'm not a TRA and I'm not permanently on twitter. But if the GC movement really wants to include minorities, then actually listen and acknowledge the concerns rather than point score

Oh, that's neat. I tell you that TRAs don't care about race, they just care about purity and being validated. And somehow that is "point scoring"? Because I didn't say it in a fashion you approve of?

Should I #bekind?...

Always with the shutting women down. You're really coming across as a handmaiden, using race to bate us with. Maybe stop forceteaming black women, many of whom are GC?

Datun · 19/06/2025 16:33

Brefugee

would you mind posting a link to that to that twitter thread?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 19/06/2025 16:36

Another mediocre bloke, way past his usefulness, trying to remain relevant by slagging off JKR, how else would we know that they were still alive?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/06/2025 16:37

FreezeDriedStrawberries · 19/06/2025 13:49

Ah, the old "you don't type, write or talk like what a woman usually sounds like" 🙄😁
So MN guessing "must be a man" as usual then, as I said.

No, what you said was "if someone says something you don't agree with that must make them a man".

And you are wrong in that statement.

Now you've switched it to writing style then sure, I agree. But if you'd said that originally I wouldn't have bothered posting would I, because I would have agreed with you 😂

So, to be clear.

Women can be wrong about things. Men can be right about things.

There's a huge overlap in writing styles where I wouldn't really assume sex, but at the edges there are some styles that are more common in men online and some that that are more common in women. With, as I also said in the original post, exceptions.

There are plenty of people regularly post the TRA perspective on FWR who I disagre with but assume are women.

In this case LimeFinch is very likely to be both a man (or possibly a bunch of 'em taking shifts) and wrong. HTH.

Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 16:41

KEEPER OF THE ROYAL SWIZZLE STICK😂😂😂

DiamondThrone · 19/06/2025 16:41

God, these men that start/come on threads like this and think it's our first time around the block.

"We I know what, let's come at those TERFs with some irrefutable arguments/links that they have definitely never seen before, that will convince them of our rightness!"

😴

Boiledbeetle · 19/06/2025 16:42

Datun · 19/06/2025 13:36

Thus, male skulls/faces tend to have stronger muscle attachments and larger mastoid processes, brow ridges, glabellar regions, thicker supraorbital margins, a more sloping forehead, more rectangular orbits, and heavier zygomatic bones. Seemingly, these differences between male vs female skulls/faces are related to endogenous testosterone and develop during puberty in males

I mean that's how I do it.

Many's the time i'd be in the bar with my mates, saying cor, look at the zygomatics on him.

It's true, you do.

Constantly!

Stephen Fry - What a repulsive, condescending misogynistic turd
Stephen Fry - What a repulsive, condescending misogynistic turd
Stephen Fry - What a repulsive, condescending misogynistic turd
BettyBooper · 19/06/2025 16:43

Datun · 19/06/2025 16:33

Brefugee

would you mind posting a link to that to that twitter thread?

I think it's this one.

https://x.com/TwisterFilm/status/1877507186147864801

Absolutely gross. I really hope he's not another one hiding in plain sight. 🙁

https://x.com/TwisterFilm/status/1877507186147864801

WinterTrees · 19/06/2025 16:45

Abhannmor · 19/06/2025 16:30

Fry was very good in Blackadder and in his series with Hugh Laurie. Not much of an actor and has reinvented himself as a professional posho , voice over king and national treasure. If Elton passes on Fry will be Keeper of the Royal Swizzle Stick or whatever. I doubt he understands much about gender ideology. He just isn't as intelligent as he thinks or as he makes others think.

I believe he is intelligent, but he has a very narrow perspective, shaped by a combination of an extremely privileged upbringing and his sexuality.

Because of the self-confidence bestowed by his expensive and exclusive education I'm sure he sees no reason to question his own views or seek an alternative perspective. Why would he? He's articulate enough to dress those views up to sound persuasive and, while they might not be consistent, as long as he's saying things that make him popular and relevant with everyone except feminists he'll be quite happy. After all who cares about women and girls?

Lindajonesjustcantlivemylife · 19/06/2025 16:45

And that's only the good things about him.🤮🤮🤣🤣🤯

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 19/06/2025 16:46

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 11:38

Caster is a woman because she was raised as such. Even JKR would agree with me that a woman is not defined by looks. Black women come in all forms, and there are black women who do look like Ms Semenya.

Looks should be taken out of the picture and standardised sex testing implemented, which we agree on. But until then, the eyesight test will allow people's racial biases to play out and disprortionately harm non-white athletes.

Black women do not come in all forms. Women do not come in male forms. Who is a woman and who is not a woman are nothing at all to do with race.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/06/2025 16:49

Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 14:35

I'm not being disingenuous when I ask this. I honestly don't know the answer.
Is the objection to trans people in a designated woman space because a) some trans people could still have an aggressive mindset and male physical strength and could therefore pose a threat
b ) a biological male could dress as a woman and use it as a tactic to gain access and attack / rape
or c) simply a general principle that a biological man should not ever be in a biological female's space as in ' end of ' not even worth arguing about.

Basically C. Womanhood isn't a state of mind, it's a fact of the body, so whatever trans women may believe they genuinely feel as womanhood is just a projection of their own beliefs about what type of personality/sexuality/behaviour is acceptable for each sex which isn't really anything to do with the actual experiences and challenges (and positives) of being physically female. Which means other than a claim to be mentally "women" there's no basis on which trans women have any more claim to female-only resources than any other man.

A and B are reasons we exclude men as a whole, C is the reason we don't accept that trans women are some sort of not-really-a-man exception to that rule.

In a nutshell.

Absentmindedsmile · 19/06/2025 16:52

BettyBooper · 19/06/2025 16:43

I think it's this one.

https://x.com/TwisterFilm/status/1877507186147864801

Absolutely gross. I really hope he's not another one hiding in plain sight. 🙁

😑 I’ve not seen that before. No surprises. 😡

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 16:56

Daygloboo · 19/06/2025 14:35

I'm not being disingenuous when I ask this. I honestly don't know the answer.
Is the objection to trans people in a designated woman space because a) some trans people could still have an aggressive mindset and male physical strength and could therefore pose a threat
b ) a biological male could dress as a woman and use it as a tactic to gain access and attack / rape
or c) simply a general principle that a biological man should not ever be in a biological female's space as in ' end of ' not even worth arguing about.

All the above really.

Also, more simply, women don't have to give up things that are theirs because demanding, entitled men want a piece of them. No is a complete sentence, to use a MN phrase.

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