Stephen Fry - What a repulsive, condescending misogynistic turd

[Absentmindedsmile]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14820209/Harry-Potter-narrator-Stephen-Fry-turns-JK-Rowling-TERFs.html

Yuk.

How do you feel about the black female athletes whose chances of achieving recognition, records and financial reward were scuppered because it was easier for National coaches to seek out DSD athletes and allow them to compete for their countries knowing that their inclusion in the team would produce the kudos of international and world medals and records? How do you feel about the complicity of the DSD athletes themselves in this widespread fraud?

However sympathetic you might feel about CS I think it has to be tempered by remembering what his cheating has done to the integrity of sport and to other athletes potential careers, and, in no small way, to the legacy he has left which means that some people view female track athletes of African heritage as potential cheats without any justification other than the knowledge that CS got away with it.

Great.

So, therefore we can only assume that discussing these cases is what should not be done. Yet, it is through the very discussions that you are making accusations about that the feminist campaigns have been started that have enacted the changes we have so far and that will hopefully create the full protection of female sports.

If women are demonised for having these discussions and silenced, then nothing gets changed.

Nope, @christmasmorale said they were black from the moment they started posting. You don’t get to plant the seed that they may be lying in order to continue your attack on them or as a crude way of gaining advantage.

I can’t see what @Christmasmorale gains from dragging Caster into a discussion about Fry’s misogyny and unfair dismissal of Rowling.

Unless she’s trying to divert the conversation away from her unsubstantiated claims that Rowling is a bully…

This is the point that I cannot get my head around.

It is like some people wish to overlook the harm that these male people do so that they can make a political point, even when that political point doesn't seem to be able to be presented in a coherent argument.

I mean, when you consider the workings of hecheatedorg that I posted on the previous page, it really does show just how many girls and women are directly impacted by just 2 or 3 in an elite event.

So, who the fuck knows how many female athletes from African nations Caster Semenya displaced and caused harm to. But women are demonised for having a discussion about the situation and the relevant people who are instrumental in causing that harm. It also feels like Semenya's deliberate and considered actions are to be overlooked.

I feel like some of the people who talk about DSDs are getting their, I dunno gut feelings?, if not information about them from the sort of medical drama that was popular on TV some years back. The ones where a pregnant woman would go into hospital and the staff would discover she had two uteruses! With a baby in each!

I know there were similar episodes with young teen girls “discovering” after a scan for some other reason, that they had internal testes. I seem to recall this second type of discovery was treated the same as the first - that is, some people are born with extra fingers, or their heart on the wrong side of their body, or whatever. “Some women are born with internal testes.”

I genuinely think there are loads of people out there who think these are all versions of the same thing.

Rather than realising that a person, who people thought was a woman until they found internal testes, is not actually a woman with some weird setup of their internal organs, but rather a man (with some weird setup of their internal organs).

The athletes with DSDs in question may have been raised for a while as girls, but they are, in fact men. Calling them that may shock them, hurt their feelings, turn their world upside down. None of those things make them any less men.

I had the exact same discussion script though just the other day.

A poster declared that JK Rowling was bullying transgender individuals. Then when evidence was requested, the discussion pivoted to Khelif. I wonder if there is a parallel discussion happening somewhere where the discussion has run like this and readers thought it was convincing so they attempt it here. I mean, there are other reasons the script is so close of course.

White feminism
You're assuming a lot about the GC women on these threads.

But here you are trying to exclude Ms Semenya from the only gender she has known.
Have you actually READ the thread? I've just skipped through it and noticed a lot of references to Semenya being treated as a boy as he got older and swimming in trunks/shorts.

But here you are trying to exclude Ms Semenya from the only gender she has known. How does that affect your life in any way?
That is an incredibly daft and self-contradictory argument.
You're complaining about 'white feminism', but how does your experience of racism against black people affect the life of 'white feminists' 'in any way'? Yet you're telling 'white feminists' that they have to care about minorities (based on an arrogant assumption that 'white feminists' only care about white women). Similarly, a GC woman might not be at all engaged in or by competitive sports, but the disadvantage to other women - of all colours - of having a man like Semenya take records, medals, and funding away from them makes them bloody angry, even though it doesn't affect their lives 'in any way', because it's an injustice.

Just like racism is an injustice.

Bollocks, she is incredibly tame actually in the face of the most vile, violent threats she receives on a daily basis. She uses her talent with words to take the mickey out of the people who threaten her.

Why the fuck should she show compassion to people who are actually inciting violence against her?

Why did you think her original stance was courageous? Is it because you know full well how violent and spiteful TRAs are? The people who destroy women’s lives and businesses? She stands up and speaks for the women who are unable to speak out themselves because they risk their livelihoods.

”Incites hatred”

Would you mind linking to where JKR incites hatred against trans people as a group? I have never seen this.

I work a lot closer to the situation than you would believe. And African sport has bigger issues than Caster Semenya taking a spot (if you believe unsubstantiated claims that this was done purposefully with knowledge of her DSD status). Underfunding, coach abuse and trafficking is a bigger issue,

As a black woman I will always stand with the victim of public racism and humiliation on a international scale- you would be hard pressed to find a black woman who doesn't think that Caster was treated awfully. This does not mean that I think she should compete in a category she was discovered not to belong to. I can care about both issues.

You only care for the black female athletes in a intellectual way to make your point against another black victim. The fact you still insist on misgendering Ms Semenya tells me all I need to know. You will not ever understand the plight of black people or women and it is not my job to educate you.

I see. We are now at the 'there are bigger issues' stage.

And the 'I can care about both issues' but apparently other women can't.

Plus a plea to not use correct sex language when discussing a male athlete.

I agree that Semenya was not treated well. Placing a male athlete into a female category on the international stage is a terrible thing to do, and not just because it's cheating, and disadvantages the female athletes, but also because it puts that male athlete into the very difficult position of having to live with the fall out when their true sex is discovered, which it almost inevitably will be at some point. I agree that Semenya was subjected to racist abuse, and should not have been. However, pointing out that Semenya is male and should never have been in the female category isn't racist.

But you don't care about the race issue. If you cared about both you wouldn't speak about Caster Semenya the way you do.

Nrtft, did the interviewer push back at all? I think JKR deserves a right of reply.

Eta why's this thread suddenly about Semenya? He's not even trans!

bringing race in as some kind of ultimate slam dunk
is disingenuous gaslighting

How bloody dare those pesky women celebrate their historic victory in the Supreme Court. Why couldn’t they think of the feelings of the men folk?

The attitudes expressed by the people I saw after the SC ruling was that sex is real and immutable and women have sex based rights.

But crack on with the oppression Olympics. When you are told to die in a grease fire or told that your mother is burning in hell for the crime giving birth to you (as one fragrant TRA directed at me during an exchange about fair sport for women ) then you can claim you are getting flak. Being pulled up on hyperbolic #bekind bullshit isn’t in the same league.

The 'white feminism' crowd don't have to provide links, examples or any evidence at all. They can just spout utter made up bolleaux and when challenged, refuse to back any of it up because that would be 'emotional labour'.

I mean if you have the energy to come online and say some outrageous stuff it's a bit weird that you're suddenly exhausted by the effort of giving the teeniest example but of course, you will expect your denouncers to provide a linked, peer reviewed and annotated report before you'll even consider that any of their points may be worthy of a reply.

Exhausted? I'm knackered just writing about it.

Being black doesn’t exempt a person from criticism. Criticising Semenya’s inclusion in the female category after puberty when her genetic condition must have been known doesn’t make someone racist.

Chris is losing her argument so is bringing in race as another (disingenuous) tactic, in the hope
that she can scare people into submission

Fry has always hated women. On one of his many blah blah travelogues he had to walk past the rear ends of a line of female sheep in a Wisconsin dairy farm. His comments about them were utterly disgusting, the worst misogyny I've ever heard broadcast.

You only care for the black female athletes in a intellectual way to make your point against another black victim

Bullshit. The Williams sisters are two of the greatest champions the sport has ever seen. They have been treated appallingly by the media and have somehow managed not to lose their shit (god knows I would have) and are absolute legends to people the world over.

Simone Biles was wrong in her diatribe against Riley Gaines (although Gaines’s pro Trump stuff is just as wrong) but that doesn’t stop her being a supreme champion and most gifted gymnast in the world.

Looking at Semenya and saying “because black” rather than “because a man” is blatant misdirection.

NB - CS has been aware of his sex for decades now, even if you ignore all the evidence of his teen years when he clearly was aware he was male. The testing was initially done in his teens.

You will not ever understand the plight of black people or women

What colour is my skin @Christmasmorale ?

It is not a slam dunk. It's to say why I think JKR is not a hero. Why I strongly dislike her tweets and think she goes far beyond what is necessary for an otherwise worthwhile cause

Yesterday she tweeted this. Same women that tweeted a nasty post about female footballer Barbra Banda.

How is that not targeting individuals? What makes her tweets OK? and is it coincidence that the athletes targeted are all non-white women? Of course feminism and race are interlinked and it is not gaslighting to call people out on it, and to refuse to let JKR define discourse on the topic of women's spaces.

JKR having eyesight is racist? Are you on the cooking sherry? 😂