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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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32
Scentedjasmin · 19/06/2025 10:29

This quote made me chuckle:
"She started to make these peculiar statements and had very strong difficult views".

...such as women don't have cocks? Or that vulnerable women prefer not to have a man with a dick invading their safe spaces? Yes, very peculiar and difficult indeed!

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:29

Cabbageheads · 19/06/2025 10:09

That's due to low body fat, not because they're male.

I know - point is that not having periods while competing at elite level would not immediately lead someone raised as a female to question whether they are in fact male.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:30

Cabbageheads · 19/06/2025 10:16

My understanding is that it's also the case that in some countries, scouts are looking for boys with female paperwork in order to funnel them in to female sports, because it's an effective way to win medals when there isn't the money for the sophisticated training programmes (and cheating methods) available elsewhere.

It is also the case.

Ekkart Arbeit is the sports coach who was coaching the East German women, then came to Athletics Australia in the late 90s ( 1997?) in lead up to Sydney 2000 Olympics to coach the women but they rescinded his contract in 1998. Arbeit eventually ended up as the coach for South Africa in the mid 2000s, but has been linked to scouting for male athletes with DSD and I believe could have been linked to scouting Semenya.

Pluvia · 19/06/2025 10:30

Gloriia · 19/06/2025 10:12

He says goady crap but he also seems so very thin skinned and desperate to be liked, so I wonder if we'll get a wobbly whiny back track.

Fry has bipolar disorder: he did a documentary about it. He flip-flops all over the place and the bipolar may have a role in that.

He was perilously close to being GC on this Triggernometry podcast:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5PR5S4xhXQ

Cabbageheads · 19/06/2025 10:31

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:29

I know - point is that not having periods while competing at elite level would not immediately lead someone raised as a female to question whether they are in fact male.

But it's generally understood that if periods haven't started by age 15 or so, this requires medical investigation, not just handwaving away because the girl in question is sporty.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:34

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:29

I know - point is that not having periods while competing at elite level would not immediately lead someone raised as a female to question whether they are in fact male.

I would suggest that that this is an over used argument.

I would expect that even 'elite' level girls will have shown signs of periods (spotting) even if it was merely delayed. And I also expect that if by a certain stage of teenage years that a girl at elite level showed no signs of female puberty, their parents and coaches would be taking them to the doctors because there could be a medical condition that is causing this that needed urgent care.

viques · 19/06/2025 10:35

Please ask the black women you know if as 15 year olds they ever posed for photographs on a beach wearing only swimming shorts ? Because that is what Semanya - allegedly brought up as a girl in a modest , religious, conservative family - did, and strangely enough there is no evidence of the normal breast development that would be expected from a 15 year old girl. Though the chest development you would see in a young man is pretty evident.

The picture is included in Semanya’s autobiography, which pretty well confirms his contempt for the people who have tried to support his claim to be female. He knows what he is and is proud to have fooled so many people for so long, and to have made such a comfortable living from it.

MarieDeGournay · 19/06/2025 10:36

Some gay men are misogynistic, that's a statistic certainty; but it's also anecdotal.

For every 'nasty to women' gay man like Stephen Fry or -possibly - Elton John, there's at least one other gay man who isn't. I know, and have worked alongside, respectful and supportive gay men, 'decent blokes', who are not represented by misogynistic or flamboyant public figures.

I've been watching with fascinating how Christmasmorale was going to deal with the realisation that they were lacking huge chunks of readily-available facts about Khelif and Semenya which have been in circulation here since the Paris Olympics.

I knew that 'oh right, I didn't know about that, I'll check out the facts and come back to you with a response' was highly unlikely.
Instead it was:
'And this is why I hate discussing these issues on mumsnet... '
which should have continued with:
'because unlike me they do their research and keep up to date on things, making me look ill-informed and behind the times'

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:37

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:22

That's factually incorrect. She was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl. Multiple sources confirm this.

While I do not agree that biological males should compete with biological females - there are a lot of grey areas in the human sex anatomy which leads to grey areas in the discourse. These need to be discussed with the nuance and racial as well as cultural sensitivity.

The fact that most posters on here refuse to see this just further justifies my belief that feminism as discussed on here is also equated to white womanhood.

Multiple sources also confirm that Semenya from a certain age was treated as a boy. There are even self published photos of Semenya swimming with boys with boys swimming gear.

I think that you seem rather entrenched in defending your own view while making accusations towards other posters who seem to have as much or more information on this topic than you do.

viques · 19/06/2025 10:38

viques · 19/06/2025 10:35

Please ask the black women you know if as 15 year olds they ever posed for photographs on a beach wearing only swimming shorts ? Because that is what Semanya - allegedly brought up as a girl in a modest , religious, conservative family - did, and strangely enough there is no evidence of the normal breast development that would be expected from a 15 year old girl. Though the chest development you would see in a young man is pretty evident.

The picture is included in Semanya’s autobiography, which pretty well confirms his contempt for the people who have tried to support his claim to be female. He knows what he is and is proud to have fooled so many people for so long, and to have made such a comfortable living from it.

Sorry, this was in response to @Christmasmorale

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:40

BettyBooper · 19/06/2025 10:28

You are so behind on this. Read some Dr Emma Hilton.

Again, you are the only person here arguing that a certified man is in fact a black woman.

No I am saying that she is a woman by gender having been brought up in society as a girl and woman. That doesn't mean she should be entitled to compete against biological women, but socially she can identify as a woman.

I am saying she was entitled to quiet dignity in how her case was handled, rather than the public humiliation she endured.

I am saying that as a black woman I have more in common with Ms Semenya than I do with a lot of you on here. My lived experience will be more similar to hers - the race discrimination I face is real. I have been called the n word more times than I care to remember. The sex discrimination and sexual violence is real (and in my experience perpetuated by men not trans women).

Yes women's spaces need protecting but the level of noise given to the issue of protecting women's spaces from trans women is not proportionate to the impact of the issue on most women's daily lives. I have real issues to concern myself rather than joining the hysteria on here. I am here wondering what life will look like for us in a Reform led UK, wondering how to respond when my child has been called a racist slur at school. I'm here no longer jogging early morning or late night in my local area for fear of male violence.

White feminism feels very out of touch on this issue - the lived reality of many women requires immediate action now. But here you are trying to exclude Ms Semenya from the only gender she has known. How does that affect your life in any way?

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:41

@Christmasmorale maybe I missed your post where you evidenced that your accusation about JK Rowling 'attacking' individuals.

If you have posted that evidence, please can you let me know so I will check again.

Because do you understand the outcome of your false accusation means? It means that you have supported abusive individuals over the victim of abuse because you didn't like the way JK Rowling posted towards that abuser. And you are making those accusations on a feminist board and wondering why you are getting push back.

If you have posted that evidence, because it is a serious accusation you are making, then I am sorry that I missed it.

Thelnebriati · 19/06/2025 10:44

@Christmasmorale
''White feminism feels very out of touch on this issue - the lived reality of many women requires immediate action now. But here you are trying to exclude Ms Semenya from the only gender she has known. How does that affect your life in any way?''

For many girls, sports might be their only way out of poverty. For a boy to take away that opportunity benefits women how exactly?

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:46

Thelnebriati · 19/06/2025 10:44

@Christmasmorale
''White feminism feels very out of touch on this issue - the lived reality of many women requires immediate action now. But here you are trying to exclude Ms Semenya from the only gender she has known. How does that affect your life in any way?''

For many girls, sports might be their only way out of poverty. For a boy to take away that opportunity benefits women how exactly?

When did I say that biological men/boys should compete against girls?

BackToLurk · 19/06/2025 10:47

Thelnebriati · 19/06/2025 10:44

@Christmasmorale
''White feminism feels very out of touch on this issue - the lived reality of many women requires immediate action now. But here you are trying to exclude Ms Semenya from the only gender she has known. How does that affect your life in any way?''

For many girls, sports might be their only way out of poverty. For a boy to take away that opportunity benefits women how exactly?

Yep. It seems to have passed @Christmasmorale by that the big losers in all this are frequently black African women, in Semenya's case South African women.

miraxxx · 19/06/2025 10:47

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:00

It matters what black women look like because gender testing is not standardised in athletics, but only done on looks. So once someone is deemed to look like a man, and is called out on it, they are tested. This leads to discrimination based on what the world deems a women looks like. Black women being the victim of may accussations of manliness (just go on twitter and look at comments on posts about Serena Williams and Michelle Obama to see)

Why do you think there's so much support for Caster from black women. Her sex is irrelevant to the wider discussion on inequality and racism within these systems.

Other countries have sent in 'female' athletes that have been mocked on the "basis of their looks" - because those looks are so recognisably male. The controversy over the chinese runners below arose in Chinese social media - so it cannot be argued that white beauty standards or internalised racism is to blame for these perceptions. People all over the world know the difference between males and females.

www.odditycentral.com/news/debate-surrounding-true-gender-of-chinese-female-athletes-reignited-by-iaaf-announcements.html

Black women athletes are not singled out as you claim except by TRAs and racists. I encountered one idiot TRA recently who claimed Serena Williams was as manly as Khelif. Is that your argument too?

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:47

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:40

No I am saying that she is a woman by gender having been brought up in society as a girl and woman. That doesn't mean she should be entitled to compete against biological women, but socially she can identify as a woman.

I am saying she was entitled to quiet dignity in how her case was handled, rather than the public humiliation she endured.

I am saying that as a black woman I have more in common with Ms Semenya than I do with a lot of you on here. My lived experience will be more similar to hers - the race discrimination I face is real. I have been called the n word more times than I care to remember. The sex discrimination and sexual violence is real (and in my experience perpetuated by men not trans women).

Yes women's spaces need protecting but the level of noise given to the issue of protecting women's spaces from trans women is not proportionate to the impact of the issue on most women's daily lives. I have real issues to concern myself rather than joining the hysteria on here. I am here wondering what life will look like for us in a Reform led UK, wondering how to respond when my child has been called a racist slur at school. I'm here no longer jogging early morning or late night in my local area for fear of male violence.

White feminism feels very out of touch on this issue - the lived reality of many women requires immediate action now. But here you are trying to exclude Ms Semenya from the only gender she has known. How does that affect your life in any way?

You have made many assumptions with that very first point and the last point.

"No I am saying that she is a woman by gender having been brought up in society as a girl and woman."

and

"But here you are trying to exclude Ms Semenya from the only gender she has known."

You have assumed that Semenya did not understand at some point in their childhood about their medical condition. And yet, there is as much evidence out there that Semenya did indeed know they were male before they started to compete.

There was an opportunity for 'quiet dignity', absolutely. When the very first doubts were being raised.

However, Semenya then went to court to fight for Semenya's right to compete in a female Olympic event without having lower their testosterone, knowing that they were male.

RedBeech · 19/06/2025 10:48

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 08:50

It's not misogynistic. JK Rowling's views go beyond just political stance/ personal beliefs - she attacks individuals and incites hatred against an already vulnerable group of people. If she was any other race there's no way she could get away with how she's carrying on and I doubt you mumsnetters would defend the extremities of her approach - she benefits from white privilege in that regard.

There are many organisations who defend the rights of women without being hateful and equating transgenderism with rape of women etc. Similar narratives were used by people against gay marriage. Her points (some of which are very valid) can be made without hysteria and hatred.

Can you quote or link to any article or tweet where she attacks and incites hatred? Because I have only ever read her standing up clearly and fairly for women's rights.

And if you disapprove of people attacking and inciting hatred, what do you make of the many transwomen who tweet and hold up banners saying GC feminists should be raped and murdered and very afraid? I can link you to many of these if you need proof. And I'd be grateful if you;d link to JKR's incitements to violence as they might change my opinion of her. If they exist.

I have asked this question of every JKR hater I come across. Not one, over the years, has ever bothered to provide proof. Maybe because it doesn't exist. But I am pretty sure you won't reply to this post with a slew of genuine vitriol and threat created by JKR.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:49

miraxxx · 19/06/2025 10:47

Other countries have sent in 'female' athletes that have been mocked on the "basis of their looks" - because those looks are so recognisably male. The controversy over the chinese runners below arose in Chinese social media - so it cannot be argued that white beauty standards or internalised racism is to blame for these perceptions. People all over the world know the difference between males and females.

www.odditycentral.com/news/debate-surrounding-true-gender-of-chinese-female-athletes-reignited-by-iaaf-announcements.html

Black women athletes are not singled out as you claim except by TRAs and racists. I encountered one idiot TRA recently who claimed Serena Williams was as manly as Khelif. Is that your argument too?

Indeed, it is Asian athletes as well.

Beowulfa · 19/06/2025 10:50

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 10:22

That's factually incorrect. She was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl. Multiple sources confirm this.

While I do not agree that biological males should compete with biological females - there are a lot of grey areas in the human sex anatomy which leads to grey areas in the discourse. These need to be discussed with the nuance and racial as well as cultural sensitivity.

The fact that most posters on here refuse to see this just further justifies my belief that feminism as discussed on here is also equated to white womanhood.

Babies born in Western countries with unclear genitals will be chromosome tested to resolve the matter- regardless of ethnicity. Girls in Western countries who have not started puberty by 16 will undergo medical checks- regardless of ethnicity. Caster's cheating was only made possible by being born in a country with poor healthcare and authorities willing to go along with it.

I'm not sure what the world's poorest white majority country is (Albania perhaps?) but I would suspect that white babies with DSDs there also receive substandard care.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:52

BackToLurk · 19/06/2025 10:47

Yep. It seems to have passed @Christmasmorale by that the big losers in all this are frequently black African women, in Semenya's case South African women.

Yes. By lionising these male people who have taken the places of female people, it indeed impacts many of the women and girls in those countries.

Maybe this will help, it was an analysis done about male people with transgender identities, but it still works.

AN ANALYSIS ON HOW JUST A FEW MALE PEOPLE CAN CAUSE HARM TO MANY FEMALE ATHLETES - THE FALSITY OF 'JUST ONE'

@hecheateddotorg
18th March 2025

To analyze performance differences between "trans"-identified male and actual female participants in girls' sport, we need look no further than girls' high school track and field.

Track and field provides the clearest data as it is an individual sport and has had the highest number of recorded male participants to date at the high school level.

There are a total of 37 male athletes on record who have participated in girls' high school track and field in the United States.

Of these 37, one athlete participated in only one race due to the cancellation of the season during the COVID 19 pandemic. Another athlete participated in a tech/private school league that did not participate in a state championship. These two athletes will be excluded from the data.

Out of 1,276 completed events, male athletes finished as follows:
1st place: 440 (34%)
2nd place: 188 (15%)
3rd place: 123 (10%)
Other: 485 (41%)

Male athletes came in 1st 34% of the time, only 7% less often than they did than any other place outside the top 3.

They finished in the top three in 59% of their events and outside the top eight in only 19% of their events.

24 of the 35 male athletes (68%) qualified for their respective State Championship meet in a total of 136 events.

When looking at athletes competing against same-sex peers, depending on the state and division of competition, anywhere from 5 to 15% of athletes are expected to qualify.

For example in states that use regional-sectional qualification, the top 4 finishers at a regional meet (often with 2 heats of 8 runners each) qualify for the sectional meet where the top 4 finishers at the sectional then advance to State. This means that out of 32 runners at regionals, only 4 (12.5%) will advance to State.
This number also does not take into account the fact that only the best runners on a team will be entered in a regional meet and often the same runner will qualify in multiple events. A runner may also have a higher chance of qualifying in a relay as 8 runners (top 2 teams) advance to state rather than 4 in this type of qualification.

In other types of qualification or less competitive, smaller regions, it may be easier to qualify.

At the State Championship meet, there are typically 24 entries in each event. 1 of the 24 will win, meaning 4% of the 15% of athletes who have qualified for state will be a state champion, or 0.6%.

Of the 24 male athletes who qualified for state against girls, 11 of them (46%) have won a state championship title, or 31% of the total.

4 of the 35 male athletes (11%) have also achieved a top 10 national ranking.
The percentage of male athletes who have been in the top 10 of all track and field athletes in the female division in the entire nation is higher than the percentage of female athletes who have won a state title.

To find the percentage of female athletes who are in the top 10, we can take the 57 indoor and outdoor events ranked on milesplit. com multiplied by 10 (10 athletes in each) then divide by the total number of female athletes in high school track and field - 506,015 (according to nfhs. org).

This number does not take into account the fact that many athletes in the top 10 appear there in multiple events and several of the 57 events are less commonly run. (All 4 male athletes in the top 10 achieved that placement in a main event).
This means less than 0.11 percent of female athletes achieve a top 10 ranking.
"But not all states require hormone therapy!"

It is true that some states do not require males to undergo any sort of testosterone suppression or medical intervention in order to compete against girls.

We can therefore, look to the athletes who have reportedly begun "identifying" as the opposite sex and undergone "medical interventions" prior to puberty or in early middle school as it has been proposed that males who do so are in line with "average female performance."

There are 3 athletes who have reportedly "transitioned" prior to puberty. Based on their feminized appearances and high voices, we can infer this included puberty blockers.

All 3 athletes qualified for the state championship meet, 2 of the athletes were conference champions, and one athletes was not only a state champion and New England champion, but he was ranked in the national top 10.

None of these performances are in line with an "average" athlete. In fact, the national ranking out of three athletes is statistically unlikely to the point of being impossible without an athletic advantage.

"But you just know about the athletes who are good. There could be more you don't hear about because they don't win anything."

When we look at the expected percentages, we can see that about 6 out of 1,000 athletes win state and 1 out of 1,000 are in the top 10 national ranking.
In order to see the 24 males as state champions and 4 males in the top 10, there should be around 4,000 males who have competed in the girls' division in track and field. (3,965 additional athletes, none of whom can have won a state title).

There have been 37 on record.

Numerous state senators and legislators have come forward testifying to the number of "trans"-identifying males participating in their states.

When these legislators testify that there have "only been 2" in the state, or in the case of Ohio, 17 athletes in 8 years, and these numbers include all sports, and when male athletes have been banned from participating in girls' sports in about half of the states in the nation, it is not likely that there are an additional 3,963 male athletes that not only does nobody know about, but who also have not won a single state title.

In regards to the prepubescent "transitioners," there should be an additional 1,000 of them who have not won a state title or achieved a top 10 ranking. This is also highly unlikely, as we've seen multiple prepubescent "transitioners" in other sports also winning national and state championship titles.

Male participation in the female division is not just unfair, it is blatantly so.
These percentages do not reflect the cost to the female athletes behind them. Just 2 male athletes in cross country and track and field in Maine have negatively impacted over 2,000 female athletes.

If each male athlete negatively impacted 500 female on average, that means over 18,500 female high school track and field athletes in the United States have been forced to compete against and have been negatively impacted by these boys.

This includes loss of titles, loss of medals, loss of relay spots, loss of entries in large meets, loss of qualifications for championships, loss of records, loss of privacy, and loss of confidence.

*2 male athletes in Maine negatively impacted over 1,600 girls

3 boys in Washington, over 2,000

PopeJoan2 · 19/06/2025 10:53

Gloriia · 19/06/2025 09:46

It isn't 'interlinked 'at all.

Men shouldn't compete against women. Women of colour of course can compete against white women Confused.

Perhaps read up on intersectionality?

Cabbageheads · 19/06/2025 10:53

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:30

It is also the case.

Ekkart Arbeit is the sports coach who was coaching the East German women, then came to Athletics Australia in the late 90s ( 1997?) in lead up to Sydney 2000 Olympics to coach the women but they rescinded his contract in 1998. Arbeit eventually ended up as the coach for South Africa in the mid 2000s, but has been linked to scouting for male athletes with DSD and I believe could have been linked to scouting Semenya.

It always baffles me when people insist that there's something very difficult and complicated going on when what it boils down to is that finding a way to place a male athlete in a female category where he has an inherent physical advantage, is just a method of cheating.

Semenya is one example, there's also Laurel Hubbard, and the situation with female high school sports in the US right now shows that it isn't restricted to poorer nations. If there's a loophole then people will take advantage of it. It's a simple as that.

SternJoyousBee · 19/06/2025 10:54

Christmasmorale · 19/06/2025 08:50

It's not misogynistic. JK Rowling's views go beyond just political stance/ personal beliefs - she attacks individuals and incites hatred against an already vulnerable group of people. If she was any other race there's no way she could get away with how she's carrying on and I doubt you mumsnetters would defend the extremities of her approach - she benefits from white privilege in that regard.

There are many organisations who defend the rights of women without being hateful and equating transgenderism with rape of women etc. Similar narratives were used by people against gay marriage. Her points (some of which are very valid) can be made without hysteria and hatred.

What makes trans people vulnerable?

The hysteria and hatred tends to come from the TRAs who actually threaten rape and violence.

I don’t deny that she takes the piss out of insufferable pricks like IW but he absolutely brings that upon himself with his vile tweets about her.

Knowing that humans cannot change sex and that women have sex based rights is really not extremism in any way shape or form.

SternJoyousBee · 19/06/2025 10:55

LimeFinch · 19/06/2025 08:51

Quite right, and well said.

Totally wrong on every point.

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