Do you ever feel wrong about being gender critical? Plus poll on political view.

[UnlockedXCX]

I know I'm making a lot of threads but TRA ideology is so widespread that it makes me question if there's something I'm missing sometimes. I also added a poll. I understand viewpoints are more complicated than being X or Y, but it's just to get a rough idea of mumsnet mindsets. Thank you.

I'm a liberal lefty. That’s where I’ve sat for 30-odd years. I don’t think a man can become a woman or vice versa, though.

There’s a Lesbian Pride thread running at the moment, there’s some extremely illiberal opinions on there. Guess who they’re from?

Your poll makes no sense to those of us in the UK who have a long history of left wing political activism, know that humans cannot change sex, and think that gender expectations are a tool of the patriarchy.

I know that it's impossible to change sex and I've never voted Conservative. HTH.

Left-ist socialist - I often examine my views to 'check myself' but the gender ideo stuff just doesn't make sense

Yup. Exactly this.

yep, I spent probably a good two or three years earnestly engaging with transactivists to try to understand the magic thing that would make it all make sense

then I realised there is no thing that makes it all make sense and I could stop trying. it was almost a relief (although instructive about the number of people in the world who can ardently believe total bollocks while being utterly unable to explain it, and not see the problem with that )

Has the Batshit signal gone out today or something?

I am American. I googled if you all had Left/Right parties and found a post that said yes, and just assumed the concepts would roughly translate over. But I guess not haha

I voted liberal as a way of meaning "not conservative". I have soiled my ballot in the last 2 opportunities to vote but in the past have voted Labour and Independent. I would not and haven't ever voted LD.

I categorically don't feel wrong about being a sex realist. As a woman, feminist, and mother of daughters I believe that without words meaning something and being able to define ourselves as a start, then we can't even begin to fight for rights and protections for our sex.

It irritates me beyond belief that even though I believe in the welfare state, have dedicated my working life to the public sector, volunteer for community endeavours multiple times a week, including helping local refugees etc etc, that because I don't think men can become women, other people can INSIST I am a far right bigot.

Literally does my head in, as if the defining feature of right wingers is knowing sex is immutable. Doesn't matter what my actual political views are, I have to be told I'm right wing.

Jeez, OP.

@UnlockedXCX Oh — and for myself: strongly liberal, generally centre-right economics, perhaps slightly conservative by temperament but think anyone sensible should want to both make things better and avoid making things worse.

Very anti-TRA mainly because of the heavy authoritarian streak and the way it destroys rights of others (so, from liberal principles), but also very supportive of people dressing pretty much how they like, seeing themselves however they like, and inviting (not compelling) others to do likewise. Significantly more worried when it comes to children (because our role is to help them preserve their options into adulthood, and also to help them become happy and positive members of society, which relies on being realistic about what others owe them).

You can pick a box for me if you like! I’m curious which one I get.

Left-wing, socialist-leaning and gender critical. Everyone I know who is gender critical is left-wing, although they hold different opinions on what political party might most suit their views.

I ticked liberal which isn't very accurate. Actually I've moved so far left lately I'm in danger of becoming invisible. And I have no doubts that sex is real and immutable.

The concepts maybe, the labels not. And UK politics seems way less partisan than US on this issue. Gender ideology was entrenched in the UK under both left and right administrations (via a left-leaning institutional class). The main pushback has come from the left, but with very many prominent right of centre voices too.

It’s not a simple belief package like US politics often seems to be.

No I'm not wrong in my view that it is literally impossible for a human to change their sex and it is literally impossible to be born in the wrong body.
I follow the science not the politics, so I didn't vote.

Politics, unlike sex, isn't binary

Socialist
Further left than our UK Labour party.

I think a lot of people blame US big pharma and capitalism for the current iteration of trans ideology hence the grumpy answers.

US posters and TRAs often don't understand what being gender critical actually is. In case this is you:

deadwildroses.com/2019/10/07/handy-venn-diagrams-the-radical-feminist-position-on-gender/

My view that mammals can't change sex is unlikely to be challenged.

Could I ever believe that so called gender identity is a more important category of human than sex? Nobody has convinced me yet, least of all the transwomen who proclaim their supposedly female identities whilst engaging in: harassment; doxxing; voyeurism; indecent exposure; taking women's places; speaking over and for women; ignoring women's boundaries; involving unwitting women in their fetishes; threats of rape; threats of violence etc. In short, acting precisely like men.

I've ticked liberal but I'm sort of centre-left-ish. I believe in the rights of people to be supported by society, for society to give a good, humane and decent standard of living to those who can't provide it for themselves, for whatever reason. For good standards of support, education, healthcare, societal structures (policing, government, street-sweeping etc) to be free at the point of use and available to everyone. For everyone to contribute to that support and the services society offers according to their ability, and that those who can contribute more, should. But I also believe in personal responsibility to support yourself as far as possible - the safety net of the welfare state should be a trampoline, not a hammock.

I have always questioned if I'm wrong in my GC views. When I've had to be careful what I say at work. When I've lost friends. When I've been told I'm a bigot who should be kicked out of groups. When I've attended events where women have been threatened with violence.

And yet no matter how many times I examine my views, I've never EVER come to the conclusion that the gender critical viewpoint is wrong.

No, I don't think I'm wrong, mostly because I've taken time to listen to all sides and think it through very carefully.
If I'm ever shown evidence that means I've got it wrong, I'll change my mind but so far the TRA side of the argument seems to mostly be strawmen and mudslinging so I suspect I'll be waiting a long time.
I'd probably describe myself as left wing politically, although now that'd be more 'old school left wing' and not 'puritanical left wing'

This ^^

I don't think I'm wrong because

• you can't change sex.
• sex is important in many cases where "gender" isn't.
• not everyone "has" a gender
• for children the only way to diagnose gender dysphoria is through the use of stereotypes.
• gender ideology is massively sexist.

it's a bloody serious topic and you (high school? college freshman?) CBA to do even the most cursory research to pose a better "poll"

Why not just have "yes" and "no" to answer the question in your title?

I have soiled my ballot

I understand people's frustrations with the limitations of FPTP, but a dirty protest seems somewhat extreme.

I'm a biologist (specialised in the genetics of sex, before moving into analysis of medical research) so I am absolutely certain that sex is binary (mushrooms aside) and in mammals it is immutable.

I'm a feminist, so I know gender is sterotypes, social expectations and utter bollocks. It's not an identity and it doesn't trump sex.

Neither of these are going to change.

On the Political Compass, which I test myself against each election, I am consistently between -8/-8 and -9/-9 (about the same place as Pyotr Kropotkin). From where I'm standing I can barely see your poll options in the distance.

Your poll is hopeless for UK readers. Our Liberal party (Liberal Democrats) is centre right, the Conservatives are right wing, the Labour party varies between centre and centre-left. Your Democratic party is right wing in UK terms and generally sits around the same place as our Conservatives.

It's not just because you haven't understood our political landscape, but because you ask one question in the thread title but the poll relates to a different question.