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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever feel wrong about being gender critical? Plus poll on political view.

139 replies

UnlockedXCX · 18/06/2025 19:04

I know I'm making a lot of threads but TRA ideology is so widespread that it makes me question if there's something I'm missing sometimes. I also added a poll. I understand viewpoints are more complicated than being X or Y, but it's just to get a rough idea of mumsnet mindsets. Thank you.

OP posts:
Goody2ShoesAndTheFilthyBeast · 19/06/2025 08:39

GC, centre left, absolutely 100% certain that biological men can never become biological women or vv. I have never doubted that that is the truth. I believe in the importance of single sex spaces and that third spaces are a better solution than biological women giving up ours.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 09:33

Fwiw surveys of the UK and political beliefs show that the positions of the main political parties in this country are not that closely aligned with the public.

Socially we tend to be a conservative country but this has a couple of anomalies - as I say there's not much of a debate on abortion and gay rights generally have crazy high levels of public support (above 80%) which goes a long way to explaining why the T decided to tag along. There's a tendency towards conformity but we also very much value eccentricity. Just not in our neighborhood! There a whole bunch of ultra straight individuals who do all the right things at the right time - go to school, get a job, get married, buy a house, have kids etc who really struggle with anyone who deviates from this. You don't boast about any achievement. That's seen as crass. We find Americans who do this really awful. We don't like the flag waving 'we are the best in the worldness'. You don't 'get ideas above your station' in the uk. Anyone seen to, becomes a target. But at the same time we love an underdog. That's why we like the eccentric - the eccentric is who we would like to be but are too bothered by what everyone will think to actually do it! So you get people simultaneously worshipping the eccentric, cheering them on whilst trying to also undermine them and trying to bring them down the second they achieve because they've not followed the rules and have got ideas above them! (See the whole concept of 'selling out')

If you want to understand this in a microcosm we have the traditions of buying a pint in the pub. Everyone is equal at the bar. Everyone buys a round of drinks for the group in turn regardless of status. People who are flash and insist on always buying the round are thought of as show off and insulting everyone else. There's a certain pride in paying your way. Conversely the guy who doesn't pay for a round is thought of as tight and shirking responsibility. A working class lad will offer to pay for a round for an upper class gentleman. And vice versa. Its an act of both politeness and demonstrating you can pay your way and equality.

Economically we are a socialist country but we are cheapskates and don't like parting with our cash. This makes us less socialist than most other European countries. There's an underlying belief that goes back to the Victorian working class and some of the non conformist prodestant thinking (Methodists) about making good through hard work rather than taking hand outs. This makes us a halfway house between Europe and America.

We are firm believers in universal health care. Support for the NHS is a nationalist pass time. It's probably the thing that politically unites us most. A couple of political parties would like to dismantle in, in some way but honestly you'd struggle to find something more unpopular with the public.

And then there's politeness. A whole sub-system of communication which no one but the British understands the rules to. Don't rock the boat.

We are also weirdly fiercely anti-authoritarian and this is helped a lot by the way the newspapers, justice system and political system developed (three pillars of democracy).

Orwell was British for a reason though. He understood the dangers of the political left in the context of the British political leaning and how this left us vulnerable to a potential authoritarian left. But this is well ingrained in enough people to understand it.

We also have the experience of the wars on the UK. They left deep scars. A mistrust of Europe and at times something of a feeling of being let down by America. There's the national pride of 'having won the but also the fact we have so many who experienced the hardships of the wars and it's lasting legacies psychological. Our voting system changed after WWI - there was a sense of the betrayal of the working classes as canon fodder by authority and women had worked to fill the gaps left by men in war. Our love for the NHS was born out of it being something the working classes had 'earned' for serving their country. So the dynamics between the upper classes and the working classes shifted. Our love of rights grew from this rather than the American civil rights movement. In this respect we have developed very differently too. Racism is different in the UK and is connected to patterns of immigration / colonies rather than slavery and is linked to issues of British class division. There are stories from WWII of how the British treated African Americans GIs really well and much more equally and the British authorities were told they had to take measures to stop this so that they didn't go back to America and expect the same which really changes a lot of how you think about how you view the war and post war period.

The church has a lot less influence too - if anything it's more or less irrelevant now.

Finally you have to understand British nationalism and sense of self. We like to be the awkward squad. We are not like these foreigners in Europe (who culturally we are actually most likely) not are we like those bloody loud Americans who think they can tell us what to do. As a nation we have an over inflated sense of self but we also are big enough to actually have some influence too. We are also small enough for grass roots ideas (this appears in all cultural fields - from music, the arts, politics etc) to grow and take root at pace. Our centralised nature in London often helps this. We see ourselves as a leader not a follower.

This is why gender criticalness in the UK touches so many different points. Geographically it's easier for us to organise on a grassroots level. We have this long tradition of leading the way (or at least thinking we should). We don't like Americans telling us what we should think. We don't like 'crazy christians'. We have this socialist roots and political leanings that simply don't exist in the US and Americans don't grasp (the OP is actually a good example - we'd probably ask if someone was conservative or socialist rather than liberal).

This is why grassroots have been able to better challenge government because it can organise more effectively. Our legal system isn't political so again we can go against party lines in a much easier way. This means authority has less control. Our laws protect rights in a slightly different way and there's much more transparency across the board. We can gain traction faster because we are a smaller country. We don't have the religious element to contend with. The vast majority of individuals who have taken the lead on the subject in the UK have come from left wing or liberal backgrounds and this is fundamentally different to the US.

It's a really big and complex subject, but one worth exploring because of all the stupid (American lead) tropes about being gender critical is being right way.

It simply isn't true and shows a huge lack of understanding of UK politics and culture the emergence and development of gender critical politics within the UK.

I could write a lot more on the subject but I think this is a fairly decent (and long enough) reflection on the key differences.

Fratolish · 19/06/2025 09:49

Do you think maybe your problem is seeing it simply as two binary sides? One lot believe one thing entirely in unison and the other lot believe the opposite, again entirely in unison.

I consider myself gender critical. I don't agree with everything gender critical people say or post though. For example, I absolutely believe in the importance of biological sex and maintaining single sex spaces and sport for women. I don't have an issue with using people's preferred pronouns though - I've seen people refer to that as being 'gaslit'. Not something I personally agree with.

We don't have to walk in lockstep.

I probably feel most closely aligned to left leaning political parties. That doesn't mean I agree with them if they start talking about transwomen are women. I'm not going to suddenly become a right wing Tory or reform voter either, simply because I agree with their stance on one issue.

CurlewKate · 19/06/2025 09:55

@UnlockedXCXYes, I feel like that sometimes. But I think what I really feel is that I want some sort of middle way. I have no problem at all in almost all circumstances with people wearing women’s clothes or using female pronouns, or taking hormones or having surgery if they are adults. But there a few-a very few-circumstances where I think biological sex matters. I am encouraged by the fact that there are trans people who think that too, and in my optimistic moments, I think we will have found a way round this in a year or two.

Cycleorrun · 19/06/2025 09:55

I'm liberal, as in I don't agree with authoritarianism. So I voted liberal. Like so many people I am politically homeless these days. The current versions of the Labour and Liberal parties have gone full circle round to authoritarianism as far as I can see. That doesn't make me Conservative and Reform has no appeal for me whatsoever. I ended up spoiling my ballot paper in the last GE.

pontefractals · 19/06/2025 09:58

NoBinturongsHereMate · 18/06/2025 22:43

I also don't ever feel I'm wrong about gravity. Or that my politics are relevant to that question.

This is my laugh react. Thank you.

Igmum · 19/06/2025 10:46

@UnlockedXCXare you American? I’m not voting because I’m way further left than liberal. I just believe in material reality.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 10:55

Igmum · 19/06/2025 10:46

@UnlockedXCXare you American? I’m not voting because I’m way further left than liberal. I just believe in material reality.

Tbf material reality and understanding the importance of it is the essence of liberalism over authoritarianism. Authoritarians hide the truth or make it impossible to get to the truth in pursuit of power and control over the population.

Cattenberg · 19/06/2025 11:08

Sometimes I feel as though I'm a participant in Asch's line conformity experiment. When everyone else seems to think you are wrong, you should look again and check you haven't missed anything. But nope, line C is still the same length as the target line and that hasn't changed, regardless of how many people want it to be line B.

https://www.spring.org.uk/2024/12/the-asch-conformity-experiment.php

Do you ever feel wrong about being gender critical? Plus poll on political view.
AlexandraLeaving · 19/06/2025 11:42

DeanElderberry · 19/06/2025 08:02

That's why political compass is useful - I see they've revised the questions lately, but couldn't do it through to the end because my internet is glitchy atm. I'll go back later to see whether it mentions gender issues at all - it did not in the past. Just stuff like taxes, publicly funded medicine, women's rights, race, capital punishment . . .

It doesn’t mention gender issues. I redid it this morning after you mentioned it - I like to check how my thinking is evolving over time by doing it from time to time. I have moved around that bottom left box but am consistently there. Which probably doesn’t fit OP’s theory.

OuterSpaceCadet · 19/06/2025 12:58

Yes I too go back to the political compass every so often. Still bottom left.

NotNowFGS · 19/06/2025 13:07

I am feminist. I couldn't prioritise the interests of men if my life depended on it.

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 19/06/2025 13:11

I'm a leftie. Was always a Green Party member until they stopped actually caring about the environment. Completely comfortable with my GC views because I'm a progressive, and I see gender ideology as being about as regressive as it gets.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 13:16

Re: Liberalism v Authoritarianism

Remember liberalism encompases the concepts of accountability and due diligence. Authoritarianism seeks to block this to maintain power. You can be a conservative liberal. The political compass has four corners - left and right wing AS WELL AS liberal / authoritarian. This is why I think the OP is particularly unhelpful and why the US political language is actually somewhat deliberately misleading in terms of identity politics (as are the current generation of Liberal Democrats with the UK).

The issue with Gender Identity is it seeks to deliberately conceal reality and those who support it have consistently been resistent to looking at data related to key questions about accountability (or to put it another way ethics and safeguarding). This makes ANYONE who supports this an authoritarian by default.

The Gender Critical movement has three different groups: The conservative Authoritarian Right who don't want to accept non-conformity and LGBT rights on any level, right wing conservative liberals who can be more set in their views about conservatism but are more driven by issues relating to accountability and don't think that its possible if you conceal sex. This group is generally more anti-state involvement in terms of censorship / taxation etc. And finally the left wing liberals who are both liberal and want accountability and are economically pro-state and pro-involvement of government.

The fact the authoritarian left lumps them all together says a lot about their desire to be open and honest an understand problems. Its a silencing technique.

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/06/2025 15:13

Cattenberg · 19/06/2025 11:08

Sometimes I feel as though I'm a participant in Asch's line conformity experiment. When everyone else seems to think you are wrong, you should look again and check you haven't missed anything. But nope, line C is still the same length as the target line and that hasn't changed, regardless of how many people want it to be line B.

https://www.spring.org.uk/2024/12/the-asch-conformity-experiment.php

I wonder if you tried that experiment on middle-aged women (especially lesbians) you'd get less conformity. Obedience experiments involving cruelty, women obey less. [insert boring piece about replicability].

TheOtherRaven · 19/06/2025 16:09

.

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2025 16:12

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/06/2025 15:13

I wonder if you tried that experiment on middle-aged women (especially lesbians) you'd get less conformity. Obedience experiments involving cruelty, women obey less. [insert boring piece about replicability].

Now that, I would love to see!

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2025 16:14

RalphWiggumsCrayon · 19/06/2025 13:11

I'm a leftie. Was always a Green Party member until they stopped actually caring about the environment. Completely comfortable with my GC views because I'm a progressive, and I see gender ideology as being about as regressive as it gets.

I understand the motivation to improve things and that being seen as what 'progressive' means. But I've grown to distrust the idea that there is some form of utopian ideal that we might progress towards.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 16:55

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2025 16:14

I understand the motivation to improve things and that being seen as what 'progressive' means. But I've grown to distrust the idea that there is some form of utopian ideal that we might progress towards.

I'm always minded to reflect that eugenics was once considered progressive, so I like to merely consider whether something is a good idea without lots of bad unintended consequences rather than worrying about trying to be progressive. The problem is the moral tone and the need to virtue signal beliefs as part of identity.

I'd rather simply aspire to use due diligence, be transparent and encourage full accountability without the need for it to be part of any political tribe.

Afewtimesagain · 19/06/2025 18:14

No, I know I'm not wrong. I interrogate my own opinions on things and I did this with being GC. I'm completely confident in knowing than humans can't change sex, so then the question is whether people who believe they can change sex should take the rights of people who know others can't change sex. And the answer is no, of course not. You don't steal the rights of one group and hand them to another group, that is not equality.

The horror that's gone on with mutilating, sterilising and medicalising children who are not able to consent is mind blowing. I don't understand how anyone can even think it's ok.

Livpool · 19/06/2025 18:45

I am gender critical socialist 🤷🏼‍♀️

Greyskies92 · 19/06/2025 19:30

I thought I was missing something. I thought I must be. I went mad searching high and low for the bit I was missing in all this. It did nothing but confirm the Emporer was starkers

DuesToTheDirt · 19/06/2025 20:52

So to me "Gender critical" is knowing that sex is binary and immutable, and that in some areas of life it is important to provide separately for women and men.

"Gender" is nebulous; not everyone thinks they have a gender, for those that do it is an internal feeling, which in some cases changes over time. It cannot be objectively defined and so cannot be a basis for reorganising society.

Statistics show that groups of people behave according to patterns that match their sex, not their imagined gender.

Why would I ever think I might be wrong?

WallaceinAnderland · 20/06/2025 17:38

@UnlockedXCX which box would you tick?

I'm guessing you're not at all liberal as you are on the team that tries to tell others what to think, say and do?

I'm GC, soft left politics, but will vote for any party that upholds women's rights.

My views are worthy of respect in a democratic society, so I'm happy with that.

TempestTost · 21/06/2025 13:43

I don't really have doubts, the fact is that gender ideology is largely incoherent and has no emperical evidence base.

I do see how for some people they turn it into a kind of parallel language system where they are using ideas in a somewhat different way, but again, I find it largely incoherent when you press it much.

Plus it seems to lead to such damaging outcomes. And a lot of the time it's really just a crass power play.

I despise identity politics in general, too, and gender ideology is just one type of that larger picture.

As far as my political leanings, I believe in liberal democracy, but I am not a liberal in the sense you mean. I accept some of the socialist criticism of capitalism as accurate and also some of the functional power relations it describes are useful, but I think a lot of Marxism is just a weird faith in a kind of undefined "progress." Ultimately I think it is just another system where an elite end up rising to the top and controlling those under them. I tend to think that class is to some extent inevitable, and not a bad thing so long as people still have certain kinds of political and social autonomy and there are limits on the disparities that appear between groups. I don't think the best way to manage that is a socialist system, nor modern capitalism, both of which produce huge bureaucracies and top down power structures.

I do believe in cooperative business credit unions, and self-sufficient communities with political representation tied closely to the community (a place, not an idea.)Some of those seem to be seen as leftist. I also believe in the family as a fundamental political unit, and that classes in society should function together for the good of the whole, and social and legal (and also personal) limits exist in order to allow us to exercise meaningfully free lives in the best way possible. That all tends to be coded conservative.