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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you support transitioning at all?

502 replies

UnlockedXCX · 17/06/2025 19:47

I somewhat do, I will admit. I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all. However I don't agree with them being allowed into single sex spaces or conversations (a gay trans person is functionally a straight person, despite what they say, and a gay FtM shouldn't try to date gay guys for example).

I question if this is a common view or is it niche in these more gender critical spaces.

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RedBeech · 18/06/2025 10:46

I think people should be allowed to be who they are, so long as they don't harm others in the process. There have always been trans people throughout history - some gay, some not. So clearly, it is a norm and always has been for a minority of people in society. I have friends, several children of friends (not just from the current 'trend'), workmates and partners of family members who are trans. To me they just are who they are - individual personalities. Their sex, gender, sexual orientation has nothing to do with me.

However, I am very VERY GC about men barging in on women's safe spaces and sports. No one can change sex, so it must be taken into consideration in any and every situation where women's rights are being jeopardised.

I am also deeply concerned about transactivism as it seems driven by some vicious and pernicious personalities. Teens struggling with MH and identity - as most teens do - being funnelled into a one-way system without proper supervision, making life-altering decisions they are, imo, too young to make, and may regret. One of DC's friends was female to male trans with double masectomy as a teen. I have noticed DS often refers to them as 'she' now. In early twenties, already reverting to her biological state, having come out of her teenage turmoil, but now without breasts. This deeply worries me. I know three young transmen, all in relationships with men, so biologically straight, capable of becoming pregnant. What happens to the hormones then?

What I find tough is how very divided the two sides are. You have to be for or against. If I was forced to pick a side, it would be GC, but tbh I don't really care if ordinary transwomen going about their day use women's loos. What I care massively about is perverted men making the most cursory nod at being trans in order to gain access to women's loos, changing rooms, prison or hospital wards. That is not a trans issue. That is a pervert issue and we need to separate the two if we are to make progress.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/06/2025 10:54

@RedBeech, you know that the “good” trans and the “bad” trans don’t wear signs round their necks, any more than the “good” men and the “bad” men have identifying badges?

All men, trans-identifying or not, need to stay out of women’s spaces. That is the only way to keep the “bad” ones out. And, incidentally, while you may not mind sharing a loo with a trans-identified man, you don’t get to take the choice away from other women, many of whom do not wish to share intimate spaces with men, of any stripe. Your not being bothered does not override anyone else’s being bothered.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 18/06/2025 11:03

@RedBeech, just to say, I don’t want to come across as criticising. I agree completely with your concern about transing kids. But I think we need to be clear that there is only one place that we can draw a line that ensures we are able to safeguard women and children, and that place is not on the side where some “nice” trans people get to do things, but the “not nice” or as Nicola Sturgeon would say “rapist gender” ones don’t.

akkakk · 18/06/2025 11:15

It is lovely seeing so many people who have compassion and feel that if not affecting anyone else, people should be able to do as they wish...

However...

It is almost impossible for anything 'trans' to not affect others:

  • pronouns - coercive behaviour requiring others to agree with the ideology that you can change sex
  • use of the other sex's facilities - obvious negative impact on that sex
  • hormones / surgery (arguably no impact on others) - impact on the NHS time and costs - funded by everyone else - and if (as has been suggested) there is evidence that some trans treatments have been prioritised then there is an impact on others again.
  • even cross-dressing - arguably no impact on others - until there is any suggestion that as a result you should accept that person as the opposite sex - then there is impact.

Unlike the homosexuality debate decades ago - where it was genuinely around what people chose to do with no impact on others - the trans debate has impact on society and others at every point... the problem is that the trans debate sits on a lie - that you can change biological sex, so to be confirmed in your 'belief' needs others to validate you - doing it on your own is rarely the solution that is acceptable...

so - as a society we should have the right to challenge the whole movement and any aspect (likely to be all aspects) which impact others

Arran2024 · 18/06/2025 11:16

The thing is that 'transitioning' can mean so many things.

There was the man at the protest rally last month who was attracted a lot of attention - he has grown boobs and was dressed in a blue and pink baby doll outfit which no woman would wear out in public. He hadn't changed his appearance - now, compare that to the likes of PIP Bunce or Moira White, who wear business type dresses and jackets and pearls.

Then there is Alex Drummond who famously kept his full beard.

There seems to be a massive spectrum of what transitioning means, and it covers those who are desperate to appear as women as far as possible and those who seem to be acting out a sexual fantasy in public or just having a laugh.

Dwimmer · 18/06/2025 11:19

I don't really care if ordinary transwomen going about their day use women's loos.

So you are definitely NOT

very VERY GC about men barging in on women's safe spaces and sports. No one can change sex, so it must be taken into consideration in any and every situation where women's rights are being jeopardised.

You actually don’t care about women’s safe spaces and despite claiming to be very very gender critical you are quite happy for men to access spaces on the basis of gender.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/06/2025 11:22

The reality is that transitioning doesn't mean anything.

Transitioning means moving from A to B.

Where A is female and B is male, you cannot move from one to the other because A and B are both fixed and immutable. There is no possible passage from A to B or from B to A.

You can dress however you like, take whatever hormones and get whatever surgery you like, use whatever pronouns you like, it doesn't matter. If you were born A you will die A and if you were born B you will die B.

There is no such thing as transitioning from male to female or female to male.

Not in mammals, anyway.

I am, of course, referring to sex.

Some people would argue that if A and B are genders, you can transition from one to the other.

This presupposes that A and B as genders exist in the first place.

Of course you can transition from gender A to gender B in the same way that you can transition from being a vegetarian to a meat eater, or from Christian to Buddhist, or from being a person whose favourite colour is yellow to being a person whose favourite colour is green. But these are just preferences and we do not organise access to things like toilets and rape crisis groups on the basis of your personal preferences.

TheignT · 18/06/2025 11:22

I feel sorry for anyone who is that unhappy.

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 18/06/2025 11:23

UnlockedXCX · 17/06/2025 22:46

> What is it that makes you so ok with the hormones element of all this?

I suppose I'm evil, but I don't really care what others choose to do with their bodies. I don't agree with any form of plastic surgery unless it's absolutely needed for medical reasons, but I also won't blink twice if I see someone with a BBL and tons of Botox.

Haven't looked into statistics that back hormones helping trans people but I am also curious about it. Would love to see proof of this, or the opposite.🤔

Where's the limit of that for you? There are mentally ill people out there who want to have limbs amputated because they don't feel the limb should be there? Is that OK as well?

Because I see surgery to modify your genitals in exactly the same way. Cross sex hormones are not as extreme, but still can cause lifelong issues when used for a long enough period of time.

At the end of the day, being trans is a mental health condition. And while yes, people take anti depressants for depression for example, and they can have side effects too, there's a lot more knowledge of the side effects of these medication, and they're not presented as being the only way forward, like hormones are for trans people.

Dwimmer · 18/06/2025 11:27

Some people would argue that if A and B are genders, you can transition from one to the other.

And these ‘genders’ are incredibly harmful to women - they are based on regressive, oppressive sex stereotypes.

Arran2024 · 18/06/2025 11:30

Dwimmer · 18/06/2025 11:27

Some people would argue that if A and B are genders, you can transition from one to the other.

And these ‘genders’ are incredibly harmful to women - they are based on regressive, oppressive sex stereotypes.

Exactly. Men don't trans into butch women, do they?

illinivich · 18/06/2025 11:38

If we know who the decent men are, date rape wouldn't be a thing.

If we know who the decent men are, we would already have women and decent men spaces.

So why anyone is confident that the trans identify men they know are safe and decent and are to be trusted in some womens spaces is beyond me.

Dwimmer · 18/06/2025 11:40

Especially considering that trans-identifying men are many times more likely to commit sex offences than other men.

Shortshriftandlethal · 18/06/2025 12:11

Maddy70 · 18/06/2025 09:44

Yes I do. I see it no differently than someone having other surgery to change their appearance Botox , hair transplant, boob job etc. As long as its an adult transitioning and not a teenager.

I also don't have an issue with a trans person using my female space

How do you know you don't have an issue? Given that in your mind any man with a trans identity could share with you...how could you possibly know what you would mind or not?

Anyway, that is what unisex facilities are for...for people who are happy or comfortable to be in an intimate space and maybe undressed around strangers who are male.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2025 12:15

Arran2024 · 18/06/2025 11:30

Exactly. Men don't trans into butch women, do they?

Some do, but that’s even more gaslighty imo.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/06/2025 12:17

Maddy70 · 18/06/2025 09:44

Yes I do. I see it no differently than someone having other surgery to change their appearance Botox , hair transplant, boob job etc. As long as its an adult transitioning and not a teenager.

I also don't have an issue with a trans person using my female space

Would you feel the same way if you found yourself alone in a women's changing room with Karen White?

PrimalLass · 18/06/2025 12:21

I absolutely don't support it.

Needspaceforlego · 18/06/2025 12:25

Maddy70 · 18/06/2025 09:44

Yes I do. I see it no differently than someone having other surgery to change their appearance Botox , hair transplant, boob job etc. As long as its an adult transitioning and not a teenager.

I also don't have an issue with a trans person using my female space

Would you be cool with your daughter being on a beauty course with Isla Bryson or would you be happy to share a hospital room with her?

It's not just toilets it's everything.

ohdelay · 18/06/2025 12:29

UnlockedXCX · 17/06/2025 20:05

Treated as M or F, what does it even mean? Or SHOULD it mean?

Outside of using their pronouns, I'm not sure. I guess they want to be treated according to the stereotypes that surround both sexes + have their preferred pronouns used.

So enforced participation in cosplay? Hard no. Also mutilation isn't cool, when did "First do no harm" get removed from medicine. Mental issues can't be fixed by giving people very real physical issues to take their mind of them.

SueSuddio · 18/06/2025 12:32

I wouldn't support a child or even a young adult doing it.

A mature adult who is post 25, ok, but what is your definition of transition? If you mean have surgery, then I wouldn't stop a grown, mature adult modifying their own body on their own coin. Saying that, I'd be worried about any woman at any age having surgery to remove breasts etc , as their reasons are often more different and it's so bad for their bodies.

If you mean transition as in wear the opposite sexes clothes, take on a name / pronouns etc etc then I don't really count that as a transition, it's just presentation. I'd be against that kind of so called 'transition' in a child, but if an adult wanted to present that way then that's fine, just don't use women's facilities.

Although my mum works with a man who sometimes comes to work as Barbara. I'm really not joking. This seems so blatantly fetishy that I think surely there should be some wardrobe limits imposed for hobbyists like this in the workplace.

FanFckingTastic · 18/06/2025 12:54

No I don't support 'transitioning'. I do think that people have the right to dress and present themselves in which ever way they want - but their clothes and appearance don't mean that they have changed sex and can therefore identify into that sex category.

It puzzles me that some believe that people can transition to the opposite sex but fully appreciate that you can't transition to a different race (for example)

AYoungTransWoman · 18/06/2025 13:00

I'm so looking forward to when Conversion therapy is banned in law so we can scrap any idea of banning transition care for trans people.

For the vast majority of trans people, medical transition is the only path to a semi-normal life. That's why the NHS covers it. It covers all of us and helps us all, you don't get to pick and choose which elements of healthcare we cover based on what affects you.

HelpMeRhondaHelpGetMeOutOfThisDress · 18/06/2025 13:05

Brefugee · 18/06/2025 09:13

have not RTFT but will go back when I've finished writing this.

First we need a definition of "transition". Gender is a social construct based on outmoded stereotypes. I am a 2nd Wave Feminist so i don't believe in gender at all and i believe in equal opportunities and not being held back because of sex.

I don't believe that public resources should be expended on unnecessary body modifications. Sometimes, back issues etc, breast reductions are necessary and in my ideal world would be paid out of social resources. Very occasionally the presence or absence of breast tissue can cause debilitating mental issues, so i agree on social funding for reduction/enhancement surgery. Probably with some caveats including more than one psych assessment and exploring other avenues to help with the mental issues.

I agree that there are (very very very few) people with genuine gender (insofar as it exists in their heads) dysphoria. They need very good, robust psychiatric help. I'm happy for that help to come from social funding. Anything beyond that is, to me, butchering a healthy body, and shouldn't happen with any public money at all. None. That, if it happens, must be privately funded. Any issues resulting from having the surgery, especially if abroad, must be privately funded. Costs of emergency care administered must be recovered from the individual.

Stonewall et al have done a good job of moving us on from not Kink Shaming to accepting all sorts of sexual practices that are extremely harmful, and with unconsenting people (and children). Voyeurism being the least of it. We have to kick back on accepting this: what consenting adults do behind closed doors, is up to them. Anything else is up to the police to handle.

on a personal level, i think we should be polite, but have our firm boundaries (no men in women only spaces) and it is up to each of us to decide how far we pander to self-delusion. Harassment of anyone should not be tolerated, and in that i include harassment of women speaking in public and not chasing after someone minding their own business and harming nobody shouting "tranny" in their faces. Respect and tolerance is a 360° thing.

This. With Gender Critical knobs on

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/06/2025 13:24

AYoungTransWoman · 18/06/2025 13:00

I'm so looking forward to when Conversion therapy is banned in law so we can scrap any idea of banning transition care for trans people.

For the vast majority of trans people, medical transition is the only path to a semi-normal life. That's why the NHS covers it. It covers all of us and helps us all, you don't get to pick and choose which elements of healthcare we cover based on what affects you.

What you want to ban is any kind of therapy which might help a distressed and vulnerable person accept themselves as the sex they are and actually live a semi-normal, or even completely normal life.

That's not conversion therapy.

Unfortunately people who transition cannot live a semi-normal life.

Almost none of them convincingly pass.

The occasional tall and muscular trans man may pass superficially as a man in order to use men's toilets unnoticed, but they cannot use urinals, communal changing rooms or showers or wear swimwear without outing themselves. Without a penis they are excluded from truly "living as a man" and their dating pool is realistically restricted to lesbians and bisexual women who don't mind referring to them as though they are men and essentially pretending to be in a heterosexual relationship. Neither gay nor straight men are likely to be interested. If they go so far as to have a phalloplasty they will most likely be plagued with awful health complications.

Trans women are even less likely to pass but may fare better in dating terms if they are attracted to other trans women, or men who don't like to acknowledge that they are gay or bisexual, or if their pre-existing female partner decides to stick by them post transition. But almost nobody considers them to be women, and using women's single sex spaces (now confirmed to be illegal) will be a constant source of conflict with the female users of that space who do not accept them, even if they are too afraid to challenge them.

With all this in mind, who would want to be trans? Surely it is better not to be?

If you're so sure you would still be trans no matter what talk therapy you had, fine. Have all the talk therapy and prove it. And let others have all the talk therapy in the hope that for them, it leads to a different and better outcome. One in which they learn to accept themselves for who and what they are (i.e. a member of their own birth sex, who may or may not be same sex attracted and/or neurodivergent), rather than engaging in a life long battle to change everything about themselves in the futile pursuit of an impossible goal.

I do not say this to be unkind. But Helen Joyce was right. Being trans is an adverse outcome, and making changes to your body to resemble a member of the opposite sex should be an absolute last resort, once all other possible explanations for your distress have been explored and discounted, and all attempts to reconcile you with your actual biological sex have failed. The number of "trans people" should be kept to an absolute minimum, because it is, by most people's standards, not an ideal way to live your life.

fabricstash · 18/06/2025 13:34

I do not believe the NHS should fund any transition that would cause long term harm to the body, which includes taking hormones not associated with your natal sex. Particularly to solve a mental health issue. There needs to be clear data about the evidence, which is why Cass should have been given the follow up information of adult transitioners. I see conversion therapy going on with several of both my children’s friends, where they are telling young gay and autistic youth that it is possible to change sex. This is a complete lie! This is real conversion therapy and I lay the blame at Stonewall et al

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