Do you support transitioning at all?

[UnlockedXCX]

I somewhat do, I will admit. I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all. However I don't agree with them being allowed into single sex spaces or conversations (a gay trans person is functionally a straight person, despite what they say, and a gay FtM shouldn't try to date gay guys for example).

I question if this is a common view or is it niche in these more gender critical spaces.

Adults can do what they choose with their body ultimately...but at their own expense....not on the NHS...and they alone must take responsibility for the consequences of their actions and choices, and that includes the negative or damaging impact upon other people.

I didnt even mention gender non conformity or clothes, so i don't know why you decided to assume that was part of my rationale.

I was clearly talking about women, children and safeguarding.

So if you want to play the game of questioning the ambiguity of posts, we can if you like?

have not RTFT but will go back when I've finished writing this.

First we need a definition of "transition". Gender is a social construct based on outmoded stereotypes. I am a 2nd Wave Feminist so i don't believe in gender at all and i believe in equal opportunities and not being held back because of sex.

I don't believe that public resources should be expended on unnecessary body modifications. Sometimes, back issues etc, breast reductions are necessary and in my ideal world would be paid out of social resources. Very occasionally the presence or absence of breast tissue can cause debilitating mental issues, so i agree on social funding for reduction/enhancement surgery. Probably with some caveats including more than one psych assessment and exploring other avenues to help with the mental issues.

I agree that there are (very very very few) people with genuine gender (insofar as it exists in their heads) dysphoria. They need very good, robust psychiatric help. I'm happy for that help to come from social funding. Anything beyond that is, to me, butchering a healthy body, and shouldn't happen with any public money at all. None. That, if it happens, must be privately funded. Any issues resulting from having the surgery, especially if abroad, must be privately funded. Costs of emergency care administered must be recovered from the individual.

Stonewall et al have done a good job of moving us on from not Kink Shaming to accepting all sorts of sexual practices that are extremely harmful, and with unconsenting people (and children). Voyeurism being the least of it. We have to kick back on accepting this: what consenting adults do behind closed doors, is up to them. Anything else is up to the police to handle.

on a personal level, i think we should be polite, but have our firm boundaries (no men in women only spaces) and it is up to each of us to decide how far we pander to self-delusion. Harassment of anyone should not be tolerated, and in that i include harassment of women speaking in public and not chasing after someone minding their own business and harming nobody shouting "tranny" in their faces. Respect and tolerance is a 360° thing.

I support a social transition. If someone is more comfortable presenting with masc or fem grooming codes that's their perogative but I don't support a medical transition on the publicly funded and struggling NHS. They can fund it privately.

If you mean you want the state to force everyone into the sex-stereotype clothing for their sex and bar everyone from accessing even the most sober and modestly-cut clothing that is culturally associated with the opposite sex then I vehemently disagree with such facist control over what should be an individual freedom. That would be totally abhorrent.

in the UK at least, there is only one group of people who appear to have the opinion that "this is how a woman dresses".

What do you mean by ‘social transitioning’? Forcing society to uphold someone’s fantasy?

No one has to believe or accept anyone else's self perception. I mean only that if someone wants to present with masc/fem grooming choices its no skin off my nose. It doesn't mean I welcome men in my sex segregated spaces. A man is welcome to wear a dress and men should make men's spaces accepting of anyone doing so.

I’d pretty much agree with this.

You mentioned fetish gear, and it was not clear from context whether you meant:

Scanty sexualised clothes, whips, chains, whatever (socially disapproved of, banned by employers, potentially a crime); or

A man wearing clothes that would be permitted by his employer if he were a woman, and, possibly, sexually enjoying it.

I don't know which you meant, but there are certainly some who would like to ban the latter: I just don't see how it's feasible. How would you set the rules?

The fact men have been able to change the law to undermine ID and DBS checks and single facilities like prisons and Rape Crisis and DV shelters and hospital wards and public changing rooms should have been a wake up call to everyone that thinks we should be kind.

When we find a way to tackle the need some men have to act out a fetish in public, involve other people in their fetish, their over sexualisation of every possible thing, their rampant sense of entitlement and belief that if a woman can say no its a hate crime, and male pattern violence; then and only then I'll question why I'm uncomfortable with a mans need to cross dress in public.

Ok I shall be more explicit. You said "I dont want to be treated by a doctor, or my child taught by a teacher in fetish gear. And the state is make no attempt to stop these people 'transitioning'."

I want to know what you define as "fetish gear". Is a man wearing a skirt, of any length and no matter how modest/conservative "in fetish gear" in your opinion? And if not, how would you like to define the boundaries for acceptable and unacceptable clothing for men? What attempts do you you want the state to make to "stop" them, given that I have already stated I believe that there should be zero state funding and significant psychological safeguards in place surrounding any access to medical or surgical treatments.

Yes I do. I see it no differently than someone having other surgery to change their appearance Botox , hair transplant, boob job etc. As long as its an adult transitioning and not a teenager.

I also don't have an issue with a trans person using my female space

Wait, what, you welcome men into women-only spaces, provided they've changed their appearance somehow?

You do know that the purposes of sex-segregation don't include the æsthetic, right?

OK, so share your own 'female space' with whoever you want, but 'female spaces' like women's toilets or changing rooms are common spaces which should be used only by people who were born female.

That's not a matter of opinion, it's a UK Supreme Court ruling.

Speak for yourself and your own private space.

No bloke is coming into women only public spaces. Nylon frock or not. Couldn't care less how many hormones he's pumped himself with. Still a bloke and always a bloke.

Nothing to do with feeling threatened either. I just don't want men of any kind in our female only spaces. Sick of handmaidens giving way to men and their desires.

@theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw fortunately @Maddy70 has no right or power to include transwomen in any single-sex space. If it's a single-sex space under the Equality Act legitimate exceptions rules then it is not within anyone's power to opt to make it mixed-sex due to @Maddy70 's opinions.

Nope

I also don’t have a problem with your house being used as a half-way house for sex offenders. I presume given you are happy to give away spaces on behalf of others, you will now be welcoming those men into your home given I said it is ok?

Fetish clothing is any clothing worn as part of a fetish.

I totally agree with this.
Also, if someone is willing to make extreme body modifications, including taking wrong-sex hormones, they are not mentally well. They therefore need counselling - no doctor should be affirming their delusions and helping them destroy their body.

I do not like the word transition, as no one changes from one sex to the other. I used to think"wear what you like, etc etc" I used to feel sorry for the men who had penilectomy and vaginoplasty and took cross sex hormones for life. Now I believe that they followed a fetish.
I also believe that no one should be given any of this treatment on the NHS, they should, instead, be given good quality therapy and possibly anti psychotic medication. They should never be allowed access to female only spaces.

No I don't, for the following reasons:

1. The belief that one is the opposite sex is a mental delusion. Delusions can be caused by a number of pre-existing conditions such as schizophrenia, psychosis or trauma, particularly sexual trauma. Drug and alcohol abuse can also create them. But afaik the entire school of Western psychiatry is in broad agreement that it's harmful and dangerous in the long term to validate and facilitate a mental delusion ("You're Napoleon? Yes, yes you are, my strong and valid General! Off you go, obtain a firearm and invade Russia! I'm sure everything will go spiffingly!" This approach would lead to long term harm for the patient and also possibly innocent bystanders; same with the trans delusion.)
2. The long term effect of taking cross-sex hormones when no existing physical illness is present, has not undergone proper peer reviewed medical research and therefore they should not be prescribed for a mental delusion. Anecdata suggest they can contribute to strokes, heart disease, weakness, muscle atrophy and obesity in men; and to strokes, uterine atrophy, early menopause, joint weakness and osteoporosis in women.
3. There is no established protocol for cross sex surgery, which makes it unlike any other surgery in western medicine. Anecdata suggest the complication rate (infection, wound dehiscence, pain, suture and skin graft failure, deterioration of donor site for phalloplasty) is as much as 60%. There are no other non-emergency surgeries for which a failure rate of even 10% would be acceptable without a long range of studies to improve the protocol.
4. It worsens mental health. Having the delusion that you're the opposite sex is bad enough, but asking that everyone around you (friends and strangers) adopt it too will NEVER HAPPEN. You can't control what other people think (although some people think they can control what other people think and this in itself is a well-recognised psychotic delusion). The resultant social isolation, frustration and cognitive dissonance will only worsen the sex-deluded person's mental illness.

So for all these reasons and more, it's a No from me.

Adults can do what they want, as long as not infringing on others rights. But Ibthibk there is a multitude of evidence now that its not good for either mental or physical health. I think we are going to see some sad early deaths in people that have been messing with their endocrine systems by taking large amounts of the wrong sex hormones with little oversight, from a very young age now.

If a man calls himself a womens name, wears a bra and insist or asked for she/her pronouns, why does the length of skirt he wears make a difference?