Do you support transitioning at all?

[UnlockedXCX]

I somewhat do, I will admit. I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all. However I don't agree with them being allowed into single sex spaces or conversations (a gay trans person is functionally a straight person, despite what they say, and a gay FtM shouldn't try to date gay guys for example).

I question if this is a common view or is it niche in these more gender critical spaces.

So, no, I don't 'support' it any more than I 'support' people being Jehovah's Witnesses, or having multiple body piercings, or eating their bodyweight in Wotsits. Many people do lots of stuff that is none of my business.

So long as they follow the law and don't hurt other people, who cares?

I dont know how society can support transition in any meaningful way, and not support men with fetishes fetishing in public?

On the other hand, how can we stop men getting sexual excited performing 'woman' in public?

I think we need to acknowledged who is hiding under the trans umbrella and mitigate for the dangerous ones. Maybe its not wise to bring your whole self to work if you are a head teacher or a doctor?

The Emperor’s new clothes. Nope.

"I don't understand how she could take this obtuse position after I explained things to her."

😂😂😂

If people want to dress in a non conformist way that’s really up to them. I personally think we shouldn’t fund cross sex hormones on the NHS as it leads to all sorts of long term health issues, osteoporosis etc. and I don’t think it should be funding what is , essentially, a form of self harm.

I'm up for having a go at the wotsits

If you're inclusive of monster munch I'm with you

I'll join you.

What is wrong with you people?😱

I support people wearing a clothes they like, makeup if they wish to do so, heels of they wish, jeans and caps if they wish.

Just don't tell me that dress or makeup makes someone a woman.

I support gender nonconformity.

I see trans as an opposite - placing unreasonable value on render conformity, just hoping/pretending you can choose which one box you want to be filling.

Genuine question....

Is there any real evidence base for the prescribing of hormones to people who believe they want to "transition"? Beyond developing secondary sex characteristics they otherwise wouldn't in the case of MtF who want breasts? Or increased facial and body hair and voice deepening in the case of FtM?

Taking hormones seems to produce these impacts to varying degrees in different individuals but also have a lot of harmful effects that are less desired.

And what is actually being treated as opposed to modified? And why is that ok under prescribing guidance?

Is there a suggestion that additional cross sex hormone ingestion treats the mental health/dysphoria aspects? How? What's the science?

I am so unsure about the diverting of medical resources, trained medical personnel and drugs, to "treat" a condition where there is little genuine evidence for the "treatment" and much evidence suggesting harm and caution.

I appreciate the view that adults with capacity can make their own choices but in a time of rationed resources and a lack of solid evidence for good, a lot of evidence for potential harm, I really really don't think this is where energy and time should be going. I am pretty dubious about any sort of surgical and medical intervention without desperate need and think you should do as little to yourself as possible really as an every day rule, so surgery and drugs on demand seems insane to me. I feel very strongly that those who do choose to go down this route absolutely should not be being paid for by the tax payer - when the same NHS can't send ambulances to Cat 1 life threatening emergencies and cancer care is months behind, it's a big no from me!

What is it that makes you so ok with the hormones element of all this?

There is no such thing as ‘transitioning’

> What is it that makes you so ok with the hormones element of all this?

I suppose I'm evil, but I don't really care what others choose to do with their bodies. I don't agree with any form of plastic surgery unless it's absolutely needed for medical reasons, but I also won't blink twice if I see someone with a BBL and tons of Botox.

Haven't looked into statistics that back hormones helping trans people but I am also curious about it. Would love to see proof of this, or the opposite.🤔

Tbh I don't really care what someone does with their body. Body dysmorphia is also a legitimate mental illness and can be very distressing. If surgery helps people with this, I'm for it. But I do believe psychological therapies should be explored first.

I'd be quite happy in a world where we can all present and act how we please, whilst we still respect biological sex.

@BinBadger

I always assumed the hormones were primarily for changing appearance. But at least one transwoman friend thinks they are directly psychoactive and improve mood, as does suppressing endogenous T. Seems to be a widely held opinion; could be placebo effect of course.

I think hormone euphoria is a real thing. Ryan Anderson's book When Harry Became Sally goes into this - I know RA is a conservative Christian and many here will find him unpalatable on that basis, but he was one of the first people to give a platform to detransitioners, so I'll always credit him for that.

The accounts you hear from transitioners are often about how the early hormone shots give them an incredible high, but then afterwards they're always struggling to reach that first high, and then the side effects kick in, and they're not feeling so stunning and brave...

...honestly, it's a bit like LSD memoirs from the 1960s. I'm not convinced they help anyone long term. And for long term effects, we know quite a bit about the effects of anabolic steroids on female bodybuilders. I don't think the effects will differ much according to one's pronouns.

Steroids (of which testosterone is one): Steroids can produce a variety of psychological effects ranging from euphoria to hostility. Some people who take steroids say the drugs make them feel powerful and energetic. However, steroids are also known to increase irritability, anxiety and aggression and cause mood swings, manic symptoms and paranoia, particularly when taken in high doses..

There are three aspects to the broader question of support for (medical) transition.

• Should it be illegal?

Making it illegal would create an underground, unregulated black market for it that would lead to worse outcomes for people suffering dysphoria who sought treatment and there's good evidence that many (possibly more than currently) people would continue to seek treatment even if medically affirmative care were banned. It's also a question of liberty, as there is also an inherent right to personal autonomy.

• Should it be a recommended practice?

This is really the thrust of the question. Prior to 2000 there was no question among gender clinic practitioners that for a subset of people who came to their clinic, ~25%, transition was clearly beneficial. Clinics were rigorous in weeding out the majority who they felt wouldn't benefit. But these were highly motivated specialists working in a chosen field. There is a striking lack of evidence in the form of robust longitudinal medical studies and trials. In addition there has been a decline in gatekeeping the service as requirements were relaxed, gradually at first, and then dramatically.

Helen Joyce has stated that she used to believe that for a set of extremely rare cases medical transition was an appropriate treatment for dysphoria, but that she no longer believes that to be the case. I'm curious what has changed her mind -- is it evidence of the efficacy of treatment or transition's add-on, society effects. My own thinking has moved from 'yes', to 'undecided'.

• Should transwomen and transmen be thought of as 'valid', i.e. as de-medicalized phenomena and treated as an identity in the same was as homosexuality?

Here my opinion has moved definitely from 'yes' to 'no' as I became more informed on the topic. Even if you agree that medical transition can be beneficial in some limited circumstances, it's imperative that it be treated as a last resort for a serious psychological problem. Treating it as simply a normal, integrated internal condition, an identity, that needs medical care to be fully articulated is a grotesque and ghoulish ideology and promoting it has resulted in grievous medical wrongdoing by practitioners.

Yes. This is how I feel/think. Adding that I believe people have bodily autonomy and if they wish to modify their body then, given they meet certain criteria etc, they should be allowed to modify their body.

This body modification does not alter the fact that humans cannot change sex.

I’m ok ish with adults doing whatever they want to do, to their bodies providing they have had proper medical counsel for it first. It’s a pretty important principle, having control over your own body. I mean, I think altering secondary sexual characteristics is a bad idea but if people want to go ahead that’s on them.

I wouldn’t ever ‘affirm’ it in the sense of telling someone undergoing SRS that they were 100% correct to do what they were planning. If they were my good friend, they’d still be my good friend afterwards. If they were an acquaintance it wouldn’t matter either way.

I’ll refer to someone however they want to be referred to, not bevause I’m being “kind”, I just don’t care much for gendered terms of reference at all. Except where we are talking about social inequalities and feminism. That’s about sex-based rights and oppression. MtF trans people have not been socialised in that and certainly will not experience the motherhood penalty in any meaningful way generally.

I’m not ok generally with natal men in women’s spaces, unless they’re invited.

No. It's nonsense 🙄

I don't know. I'm trans myself. I haven't had surgery, but I've been on hormone therapy for almost 6 years.
I guess it depends what you mean by "support."

I can't support transitioning children. And I honestly think that if someone suddenly comes out as trans, the first thing to do would be for them to go to therapy, speak to their GP, and wait first. I don't support people going straight on to hormones and booking surgeries.

But I will always be friendly and understanding when it comes to genuine trans people, if that can be what support looks like?
Similar to religious bodies. I'm not religious, I have no interest in joining any religion and can feel a stab of annoyance when religious people knock on my door or stop me in public. I won't donate to their fundraisers, but I'm not going on an all out war to end religion. I'd never be deliberately rude or unfriendly towards anyone coming to me to talk about their God.
But if they suddenly started ramming my bathroom and throwing Bibles at me whilst screaming their God is the one true God, yeah I'd have a problem with that.

No.

It doesn't exist. It's a lie. We cannot transition to the opposite sex. I would be respectful of trans colleagues and people in the street, of course. But I don't agree with the movement, no.

I think butch women should absolutely rock the look. Look as 'male' , as masculine, as 'butch' as you like and stick a finger up to the world ! Be butch ! Rebel! You don't have to believe that now makes you a man .

Men : I miss the days of the glittery, sparkly, make up wearing, dress adorning 'queens' who were just really really really effiminate gay guys. They never even considered thinking they must be a female and need their penis removed.

We've gone terribly backwards. Conversion therapy in action. We're calling it "progress" apparently.....

Treating it as simply a normal, integrated internal condition, an identity, that needs medical care to be fully articulated is a grotesque and ghoulish ideology and promoting it has resulted in grievous medical wrongdoing by practitioners.

This.

It's as reliable as snake oil or homeopathy or your gran waving a magic rabbit paw near you.
It's fake.