Do you support transitioning at all?

[UnlockedXCX]

I somewhat do, I will admit. I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all. However I don't agree with them being allowed into single sex spaces or conversations (a gay trans person is functionally a straight person, despite what they say, and a gay FtM shouldn't try to date gay guys for example).

I question if this is a common view or is it niche in these more gender critical spaces.

I know a fair few less feminine women who wear men's clothes because they are cheaper.

They often seem to be made of better materials too - just compare the thickness of the cotton on men’s and women’s t-shirts from the same shop.

I am not sure if it does, or at least if it does directly.

For example, someone's depression could be improved if they came out as trans,
because that gives the a sense of belonging to a group and a reason for them feeling down. But it wouldn't be because of transitioning.

In addition psychology distress usually improves over time without intervention.

Even if transitioning did hypothetically "work", that doesn't mean it is the best or only way to treat gender dysphoria. Especially given the physical downsides (surgery is usually a last resort for many conditions) and the inherent continued tension from never truly being that sex you are attempting to present as rather than finding a way to be it.

It concerns me that there's so little research and development into effective treatment for gender dysphoria. Psychologists who disagree with TRAs often have to stay silent or get compared with I.e gay conversion therapy. It also concerns me how increasingly gendered our society is, which may be one factor behind dysphoria.

For various conditions in the 20th century therapy hasn't worked well until other methods more tailored to that condition were developed: CBT, DBT, EMDR etc. Those still don't work brilliantly and there's more work to be done.

That’s true women’s are often like tissue paper nowadays. I used to buy a boatneck t shirt from markies. It’s still £10 but the fabric is really cheap now and stretches out of shape easily. Mens ch are fine though.

Wrong! Research shows that suicide increases post surgery. There has been proven to be no benefit over all, that is what left wing govts around the world have found and exactly why they've stopped puberty blockers. All the factual research shows and proves that there is no demonstrable benefit.
And, the 'less than 1%' was based on faulty research and debunked. Even WPATH say the regret rate is on average 30%, with one hospital putting the regret rate at 42%, @Roxietrees . You are very misinformed.

It's not all about you. I care if a male is using a female only safe single sex space. We're not all handmaidens and dick-panderers throwing our feminist ancestors and current sisterhood under the bus in order to get male approval.

Because females need the communal safe single sex spaces. Which is WHY feminists in the past fought so fucking hard for them, that's why!

I disagree.

In my view there is a fairly strong argument that a hairdresser might choose to be single sex, because the service they are offering is two-fold - it is the provision of haircuts and other hair services to those who wish to appear feminine, AND it is a place where women can be pampered and talk in a space clear of all men. That latter part of the service is part of the all-encompassing "experience" that means they can charge top money.

If they choose solely to offer feminine haircuts, not the wider female only experience, then why on earth should men who know they are men but want a "women's" haircut not have the same right to have one as a man who claims to believe that he's a woman?

Could you please link to sources, proof, etc. evidence that hormones and surgery provide no real benefit?

https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article-abstract/22/4/645/8042063

'From 107 583 patients, matched cohorts demonstrated that those undergoing surgery were at significantly higher risk for depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, and substance use disorders than those without surgery.'

'Gender-affirming surgery, while beneficial in affirming gender identity, is associated with increased risk of mental health issues, underscoring the need for ongoing, gender-sensitive mental health support for transgender individuals’ post-surgery.'

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11063965/

'Results
Individuals who underwent gender-affirming surgery had a 12.12-fold higher suicide attempt risk than those who did not (3.47% vs. 0.29%, RR 95% CI 9.20-15.96, p < 0.0001). Compared to the tubal ligation/vasectomy controls, the risk was 5.03-fold higher before propensity matching and remained significant at 4.71-fold after matching (3.50% vs. 0.74%, RR 95% CI 2.46-9.024, p < 0.0001) for the gender affirmation patients with similar results with the pharyngitis controls.
Conclusion
Patients who have undergone gender-affirming surgery are associated with a significantly elevated risk of suicide, highlighting the necessity for comprehensive post-procedure psychiatric support.'

This review points more to lack of good quality research:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10027312/

'The majority of the 23 studies reviewed claimed that various forms of gender-affirming treatment were associated with reductions in suicidality; however, the validity and robustness of their results suffered from either a lack of measures of statistical significance and effect size, correction for multiple testing, controlling for psychiatric diagnostic makeup or psychiatric treatment history, substance use, the interaction of time since receiving gender-affirming treatment, or any combination of these. The two studies that showed an increase in suicidality for those who received gender-affirming treatment suffered from many of the same problems in validity and robustness. '

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/comment?id=10.1371/annotation/dcc6a58e-592a-49d4-9b65-ff65df2aa8f6

'Estrogen is associated with greater suicidality among transgender males, and puberty suppression is not associated with better mental health outcomes for either sex'
...
'Controlling for other variables, females who took testosterone reported better outcomes than females who had not taken it, including those who did not even want it. Perhaps this is unsurprising given that several randomized control trials find testosterone acting as an anti-depressant [13]. In stark contrast, however, males taking estrogen reported greater suicidality than males not taking estrogen.'

Thank you @ArabellaScott. I've bookmarked all of this -- maybe I can send it to some friends and try to "peak" them if they ever ask for proof of what I say.

The Cass Review may also be useful, OP, if you haven't read it. The basic conclusion drawn from that was really that there just wasn't enough quality evidence - although this was in relation to young people, of course.

There is another review for adults going on as we speak.

"I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all."

I agree with the dressing, the name change and the hormones for adults. I don't know what you mean by being treated as M or F, I treat people as people not as their sex, not as stereotypes. If you mean pronouns I refuse to use incorrect pronouns, corrupting language almost lost women our rights in the UK and I wont' support that.

Coming back to play devil's advocate a bit: a quick google search showed me several studies that claimed gender affirming surgeries do in fact help. A bit more googling led me here: (I don't know why the link doesn't work, but you can google "My master list of trans health citations (in responses)" and find it probably.)

Is anyone with more time/experience on this matter able to debunk any of the positive studies presented?

I bet that only works for taller women. I find mens clothes too long to fit.
But I can't say I'd blame any woman if she can get mens clothes to fit, esp uni sex stuff like t-shirts and outdoor wear.

That's so important to remember, women faught for toilets, as without them they were limited on where they could go or travel too, ie not to far from home.

But its everything else, not just toilets, who really wants their DD getting changed in a school changing room with boys in skirts?

Who would think it's appropriate for a male mature student to be on a beauty therapy course with teenage girls?

It's it appropriate for an elderly woman to be sharing a hospital room with a male?

It's really not about toilets is everything. I hate religion getting brought into the argument because every female deserves privacy at the sinks in a public toilets. But religious women might also want to adjust, redo their headscarf at the mirrors too without men watching 👀

I have to say that I get absolutely pissed off with the concentrating on toilets! It is women's safe spaces, dv refuges, women in prison, women in hospital, both physical and mental health hospitals, places where women wish to meet without any men. All of which are as important, along with prizes and consultations which are supposedly for women, being hijacked by men claiming to be women.

I also get so peed off with the focus on toilets. Personally I do not care. I think the focus on men’s loos probably results from a male gaze, because men’s loos generally involve getting your old chap out so are very sexed.

Women’s loos are private so less risk of bodily embarrassment for gender dysmorphic males and we are also a lot friendlier and more sisterly in the loos.

much, much more important are rape crisis centres, homeless and DV hostels, prisons and hospital wards in that order, probably.

And sports. Sorry. Sports are up there. How dare you bloody colonise the one thing where we actually are at a performance disadvantage? I mean, in any other context, that would be abhorrent, right?

I appreciate it is much more than toilets but they are the thin end of the wedge. Oh you let TW use toilets so what’s the problem them
using women’s refuges, prisons etc.

It’s about sending a resounding no that when it says women’s or female on the door no man is permitted to enter.

This isn’t strictly about surgeries (though I think they get a mention), and also is now 2 years out of date (there is definitely more research that’s been done recently, particularly wrt the lack of improvement in mental health post treatment) but possibly helpful:

mungeribabu.substack.com/p/estrogen-is-really-bad-for-men

All of it. But i regard the loos as impotent too but it'sthe common every day use that affects all women all the time. This steady invasion of the mundane.

And it's not even about feeling threatened. No men, trans in women's loos. Principle.