Do you support transitioning at all?

[UnlockedXCX]

I somewhat do, I will admit. I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all. However I don't agree with them being allowed into single sex spaces or conversations (a gay trans person is functionally a straight person, despite what they say, and a gay FtM shouldn't try to date gay guys for example).

I question if this is a common view or is it niche in these more gender critical spaces.

Important not impotent

Exactly. If our Australian friend Jack claims his right to use the women's then obviously there is no such thing as single sex toilets. If even something as basic as toilets can't be single sex then why would we expect that anything else can be?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jun/15/trans-australian-uk-britain-tolerance

This is a discussion of the long-hidden, finally-published Olsen-Kennedy study:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5349417-the-olsen-kennedy-study-is-released-mental-and-emotional-health-of-youth-after-24-months-of-gender-affirming-medical-care-initiated-with-pubertal-suppression

And this has a nice summary of the recent research:

segm.org/UK-cross-sex-hormones-restriction

Things to look out for when assessing studies:

Sample size (number of relevant participants)
Length of followup
Loss to followup
Control group and how confounding variables are controlled for
Demographics of treatment group vs control group
Selection criteria
Generalisability
Statistical analysis
Conflict of interest by the researchers
Attempts to minimise bias eg by ‘blinding’
look at methods and results, not conclusions as those are just the authors musing.

And always read the original paper, not just an article about the paper.

For example, the Scottish Government used selective results from a report of a survey on homeless adults in Ontario gathered by ‘snowball sampling’ where you give the survey to a few individuals and ask them to pass it to their mates (who are therefore likely to have the same opinions) produced by a Trans lobby group in order to claim affirmation only approach was necessary for Scottish School children…. (Unsurprisingly failing to mention any of the aforementioned points)

Very nice. This needs printing off and laminating and sending off to uni with every undergraduate (irrespective of any gender issues).

Having encountered a masturbating transwoman in the ladies, I disagree. They are spaces that some predators will deliberately target, precisely because they aren't gatekept.

I think the idea of transitioning is a lie and a harmful and regressive one at that. Psychiatry is the least respected field of medicine and many dispute that it is a true medical field at all. There is often little proof for the treatments psychiatrists provide and a look at the history of psychiatry shows its a field responsible for a great deal of harm. There is no evidence that having trans identity has any basis in reality or anything medical and that is because nobody is born the wrong sex or in the wrong body, we all are our bodies. Transitioning isn't even possible. once can have body modification surgeries, they can take cross sex hormones and change their appearance in other ways but none of that leads to a change of sex, a male remains a male, a female remains a female and there are very real harms these interventions can cause.

It's a free country and we cannot stop people pretending to be the opposite sex or going to great lengths to maintain that pretence but I think a healthier more progressive approach would be to help people to develop self acceptance, to accept their bodies and any gender non conforming aspects of their selves and to also encourage acceptance from wider society that just because a man enjoys what might be considered more feminine clothing or interests doesn't mean he should feel unsafe using male facilities or unwelcome in male sports. Men should be encouraged to be accepting of these men rather than it being expected that women should allow their rights to be trampled on.

Mainly I want women's rights and access to single sex spaces, sports and representations to be maintained as for actual women only, aside from that people can do what they like but I do think the current idea of transition is a lie and regressive and I do think in time people will look back on the current trend of harmful cross sex hormones, transing children and young people and barbaric surgeries and find it horrifying.

Toilets are really important to me. My adult daughters are adopted and still affected by the impact of their early lives in their birth family. It isn't that they were sexually abused - they weren't - but more a hypervigilance and anxiety that is always hovering in the background, and a completely hysterical response life something does go wrong.

So they are always on edge when they go out, but they do go out. And same sex toilets are part of what helps them go out.

I first got interested in the whole trans/women's rights issue specifically because my daughter was going clubbing and getting upset because men were using the ladies and no one was doing anything about it.

So for me toilets ARE important. I know that tras make it sound trivial but it is the one issue that every woman faces. Most of us won't govto prison. Not everyone plays sport. But we all use toilets.

I agree

I have a friend who was brutally raped. Men in ladies toilets would be a huge trigger for her. But it seems these vulnerable women don't matter.

And no one should have to disclose their trauma to matter. My rights aren't anyone else's to give away.

No.

And why do trans people keep asking as if they think that if they use pester power we'll end up saying yes? It was because of the constant pestering that enough people spoke out and said that enough is enough.

@TheKeatingFive @Arran2024
Those are some of the reasons why it's important to keep religions reasons out the argument. Every woman and girl deserves dignity in single sex spaces.

I think because Christian and non-religous women don't display their beliefs they are often forgotten, almost like their dignity just doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter how much flesh a girl or woman chooses to display, crop top and hot pants, she should still be able to decide who shares the room she gets changed in.

And when it comes to schools, children are not to be expected to be responsible for their own safeguarding.

This thread is incredibly interesting and certainly adds to the evidence that the Gender Critical Ideology Movement is fundamentally eliminationist in nature. Even some of the less extreme voices still want to take away some pretty basic rights that would never be asked of straight people.

To many trans people this is not surprising, particularly given comments by 'gender critical' voices such as Michael Knowles, Helen Joyce and Matt Walsh who have all espoused trying to reduce / remove trans people from society, but it will be interesting to see what normal, uninvolved people think from seeing the responses here.

This is where we all started, we were all being kind. The correct answer is no.

What rights do you think are being taken away?

but it will be interesting to see what normal, uninvolved people think from seeing the responses here.

Don't worry, we already know what they think and I doubt that Bee's posts are going to change hearts and minds:
yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

@BeeSouriante Even some of the less extreme voices still want to take away some pretty basic rights that would never be asked of straight people.

List of fundamental human rights

• Right to life. Yep. Trans people have the right to life. Even the most ardent GC feminist will agree with this.
• Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged.
• Freedom from slavery and forced labour. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged.
• Right to liberty and security. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged.
• Right to a fair trial. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged.
• No punishment without law. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged.
• Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged. What happens behind closed doors between consenting adults is no one else's business.
• Freedom of thought, belief and religion. I don't think generally GC feminists challenge this right for trans people, they can believe what they like, but a lot of trans people certainly want to curtail this right for GC feminists and institute a compulsory state belief tantamount to a fundamentalist religion that we must believe in the power of gender to overule the physical reality of sex.
• Freedom of expression. As above, no calls for this right to be restricted coming from this side, but plenty of calls for women to shut up and stop expressing their needs or beliefs coming from the TRA side
• Freedom of assembly and association. Ditto. It's when women try to assemble or organise without males that the violence and abuse against us gets most horrible.
• Right to marry and start a family. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged. Obviously starting a family has challenges if both members in a couple produce the same type of gametes but in that case whether or not one or both are trans doesn't change what happens.
• Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged. It is illegal under the Equality Act for anyone with the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment to have less favourable treatment than if they didn't have that characteristic, in terms of housing, goods and services, employment, etc etc. Discrimination is illegal. The only proviso is that the comparator is that a male who has a trans gender identity must not be treated less favourably than a male without a trans gender identity. The trans gender identity is not a magic wand that actually changes reality.
• Right to peaceful enjoyment of your property. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged.
• Right to education. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged. - Right to participate in free elections. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged.
• Abolition of the death penalty. Absolutely. This right is not being challenged.

These are the basic human rights we all share. None of these have been denied to trans people, despite them campaigning for some of these rights to be removed from others.

The "rights" that gender ideologists believe they have "lost" are the rights to force non-consenting people to participate in a belief system they do not share, and to prioritise the desires of narcissists over the wellbeing of the vulnerable. These are not rights that have ever been granted, nor ever will be.

What about the rights of those who want and/or need single sex spaces?
Sex is a protected characteristic.
Why do the desires of people who are lying trump the actual rights of those who aren't?
If I lie and say your house is mine because I desire it, can I take it?

Bee's reference to "straight people" is funny and revealing. Because of course the LGB movement, once it kicked out the weirdos and extremists, was fundamentally a liberal movement asking to be treated the same as straight people.

Whereas the trans movement is asking, not to be treated the same, but to have special privileges based on a subjective identification that nobody can check.

Chief among those demands being the existence of "single sex" "women's" spaces that may be accessed by any male claiming to have a special identity.

Gender critical is not ideological - it is simply based on truth / biology / reality

eliminationist is still not a word

you can’t eliminate a group that doesn’t exist - you can’t transition, therefore you can not be a transwoman therefore let’s say it as it is: a group of men - who will always continue to be a group of men - and much as it is not possible for them to become women, so it is biologically impossible for anyone to stop them being men - it is not possible to eliminate them as a group (unless you are suggesting actual literal elimination - but you can’t be as evidence shows that to date all the violence and killing has been promoted by TRAs against women)

no rights are being removed - the ‘rights’ that some wanted to steal from others are being returned (women’s rights to single sex spaces etc)

This.

Nobody is taking away your basic rights.

We are objecting to you having privileges which no one else has and which trample over the rights of other groups.

Keeping men out of women's changing rooms and toilets isn't 'eliminating' them. Any more than keeping adults out of primary school is 'eliminating' them.

Society needs rules and organisation. Protections of privacy, safety, and dignity mean that we separate some groups in some situations - so we don't expect people to change their clothes in public, for example. It's so absurd to suggest that some men's existence is contingent on providing unfettered access to women in vulnerable states.

And it's pretty blatant, too.

Women, women's bodies, women's spaces, are not anybody's property but that of the women themselves. No woman has a duty or obligation to share her body, space, rights, with a man, just because he wants them.