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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you support transitioning at all?

502 replies

UnlockedXCX · 17/06/2025 19:47

I somewhat do, I will admit. I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all. However I don't agree with them being allowed into single sex spaces or conversations (a gay trans person is functionally a straight person, despite what they say, and a gay FtM shouldn't try to date gay guys for example).

I question if this is a common view or is it niche in these more gender critical spaces.

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JamieCannister · 19/06/2025 08:55

Maddy70 · 19/06/2025 01:15

Genuinely don't care if a trans person uses my space

So long as they are the same sex as me

JamieCannister · 19/06/2025 08:56

Maddy70 · 19/06/2025 01:18

I am happy for trans people to share my space and also happy foren to share "my' space. Why don't we all just have "unisex" self contained cubicles What's the problem?

Self contained cubicles make sense - it also makes sense to have them in single sex spaces where women are safer and men and women have more privacy and dignity away from those of the opposite sex.

Tiredofwhataboutery · 19/06/2025 09:17

SionnachRuadh · 18/06/2025 16:44

Older transitioners frequently complain that they'd pass better if they had transitioned younger. That's a big part of the rationale for transitioning young, rather than waiting to figure out if it's what you really want.

There really is no excuse for the trans identified girls who think surgery will give them something like a functional penis. They need to be told not to get their medical info from Reddit.

I remember watching an interview of a detransitioner who had taken puberty blockers and cross sex hormones at a young age. Decided to stop before vaginoplasty, I’d definitely of said passing but a big issue was even though they were an adult they had the physique of a prepubertal girl and the sort of people drawn to that aren’t the sort of people you want in your life.

drspouse · 19/06/2025 10:03

Roxietrees · 18/06/2025 21:41

Regardless of my own beliefs- what you’ve said about all the research done on transitioning showing there’s no benefit is completely untrue. The research shows the opposite- the vast majority have improved mental health and less than 1% regret it

There's no systematic review or meta-analysis showing that good quality studies come to this conclusion. They all show that the research is of poor quality.

I see you've swallowed the "1% regret" figure as well. That's also from poorly conducted, subjective, and short term studies. If you can't find a patient at follow up, you can't say whether they regretted the surgery or not, but if they don't like the clinic they are less likely to be in touch.
Just a quick perusal of detrans Reddit will tell you these figures must be way off.

"All studies low to moderate quality"
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/trgh.2020.0094

TheKhakiQuail · 19/06/2025 10:42

Yes. I don't like the ideological approach that involves undermining women's rights and language, and organisations such as WPATH seem dodgy af so I don't have a lot of confidence in what they are being offered by the medical system and Governments. But at an individual level, how people choose to live is up to them, as long as they are making informed medical choices. I generally want everyone to be as happy as they can be without encroaching on the rights of others.

JamieCannister · 19/06/2025 11:10

TheKhakiQuail · 19/06/2025 10:42

Yes. I don't like the ideological approach that involves undermining women's rights and language, and organisations such as WPATH seem dodgy af so I don't have a lot of confidence in what they are being offered by the medical system and Governments. But at an individual level, how people choose to live is up to them, as long as they are making informed medical choices. I generally want everyone to be as happy as they can be without encroaching on the rights of others.

I am not convinced that it is possible for any trans people to give informed consent given their mental health issues or out of control paraphilias.

And even that assessment assumes lots of very high quality evidence of outcomes that one would need to have AND be able to understand and interpret before being informed.

I have no evidence most people could assess good evidence suffciently, the evidence isn;t there, and the people who are trans have issues which makes them less likely to be able to critique good evidence (if it existed).

We are a long wy from informed consent IMHO.

Anyone who says otherwise is someone who is happy to see all sorts of people volunteer for sterilisation and genital mutilation even though there is no evidence of benefit and plenty of evidence of regret.

MrsAlgernon · 19/06/2025 11:22

Short answer: I really don't know.

Rambling: I am very uncomfortable with idea of banning it outright. While - like many of you I can't stand egg culture, replacing material reality with 1984 language and tightly policed groupthink behaviours, unbelievably delusional denials in trans communities. Sceptical of narratives that transitioning provides mental relief.

but I'm also worried we are punching down on crippling mental condition that gets label gender dysphoria and that we might be too dismissive of it. And that "well, don't transition! just get therapy" isn't cutting it.

teksquad · 19/06/2025 11:24

Amd are they informed? I dont think anyone was informing the children, or their parents, given puberty blockers were being informed about the very real risk of serious side effects, not to mention infertility and no libido as adults. How could a child possibly consent to that anyway before puberty and knowing what sexual feelings are? Many people arent interested in having children until their twenties and thirties, I certainly wasnt and would have been devastated then to find I was infertile, or my partner was. And yet children were being asked to do that.

Even adults, as others have said, should they be being asked to consent to that whilst in the grip of a mental health crisis? I have enormous sympathy for detransitioners. There can't be much worse than coming to realise you were rushed into severe body modifications and lifelong effects on your fertility and libido, with increased risk of hormonal cancers, heart disease etc down the line, whilst you were is a crisis state with unresolved trauma that could have been resolved with therapy and/or medication.

I mean I think we have become a bit desensitised to the fact that some trans people are actually cutting off their penises and breasts, and this was normalised and encouraged in many clinics. That isnt normal or healthy.

JamieCannister · 19/06/2025 11:28

MrsAlgernon · 19/06/2025 11:22

Short answer: I really don't know.

Rambling: I am very uncomfortable with idea of banning it outright. While - like many of you I can't stand egg culture, replacing material reality with 1984 language and tightly policed groupthink behaviours, unbelievably delusional denials in trans communities. Sceptical of narratives that transitioning provides mental relief.

but I'm also worried we are punching down on crippling mental condition that gets label gender dysphoria and that we might be too dismissive of it. And that "well, don't transition! just get therapy" isn't cutting it.

I would have infinitely more sympathy for your position if there was any sort of credible argument as to why people with BIID should have limbs removed

AltitudeCheck · 19/06/2025 12:08

Using hormones, medicines and cosmetic procedures and other artificial means to change your body into the body you want is broadly accepted in society now. Cosmetic procedures, padded bras, decorating your body with tattoos, piercings, acrylic nails, false eyelashes, fake tan... so I don't object to adults spending their money to 'transition' themselves into whatever aesthetic they wish (though I do have an opinion on how awful some of these actually look, I believe it's their body, their choice).

But none of these things change someone's biological sex and in the handful of instances where biological sex matters and seperate services/ facilities are required then transition doesn't change that.

akkakk · 19/06/2025 12:15

AltitudeCheck · 19/06/2025 12:08

Using hormones, medicines and cosmetic procedures and other artificial means to change your body into the body you want is broadly accepted in society now. Cosmetic procedures, padded bras, decorating your body with tattoos, piercings, acrylic nails, false eyelashes, fake tan... so I don't object to adults spending their money to 'transition' themselves into whatever aesthetic they wish (though I do have an opinion on how awful some of these actually look, I believe it's their body, their choice).

But none of these things change someone's biological sex and in the handful of instances where biological sex matters and seperate services/ facilities are required then transition doesn't change that.

I think that is a good philosophy...

sadly though I don't think that is at the heart of this issue - those who wish to mess up their body with hormones or surgery and do so quietly, on their own and not affecting others are a very small part of the discussion...

it is all the others who insist on the rest of society changing to support them in living a lie to validate their mental health issues. Men needing access to women's spaces is a simple example - parents butchering their children in acts of child abuse is another... even pronouns and insisting that everyone else uses them is coercive and inappropriate.

1apenny2apenny · 19/06/2025 12:18

If people want to change the way they look then that’s up to them. We all do it all the time, change our hairstyles, lose weight etc. However when you make any change you are still you and you cannot change your birth sex.

If a man wants to wear a dress, shave his legs, wear lipstick - up to him but he is just changing the way he looks nothing else.

If people want to chop bits off their body then I would say this indicates a mental illness and they should seek counselling. If they persist then they should pay for any procedures and the on-going care costs. There are thousands of women who for example don’t like their large breasts but you cannot get this done on the NHS unless an extreme case.

So I dont agree with state funded operations for those who want to ‘transition’. There is no such thing as transitioning because you cannot change from one state (sex) to another.

JamieCannister · 19/06/2025 12:22

AltitudeCheck · 19/06/2025 12:08

Using hormones, medicines and cosmetic procedures and other artificial means to change your body into the body you want is broadly accepted in society now. Cosmetic procedures, padded bras, decorating your body with tattoos, piercings, acrylic nails, false eyelashes, fake tan... so I don't object to adults spending their money to 'transition' themselves into whatever aesthetic they wish (though I do have an opinion on how awful some of these actually look, I believe it's their body, their choice).

But none of these things change someone's biological sex and in the handful of instances where biological sex matters and seperate services/ facilities are required then transition doesn't change that.

"in the handful of instances where biological sex matters". Can I just check whether you agree that where sex matters, sex matters, and where sex doe not matter neither does gender. ie gender matters nowhere (other than in the head of the individual and in the heads of anyone else who wishes to play along).

I genuinely believe that "cosmetic procedures, padded bras, decorating your body with tattoos, piercings, acrylic nails, false eyelashes, fake tan" are all things that should be allowed. BUT, I also think that a lot of the reason they are done is society pressure or influence, and that the world (and their lives) might be better if they did not feel pressured into those things, or wasting their money on those things when they could be having a meal out with their partner with the cash instead. Also, every fake tan (etc) adds to the pressure on others to get a fake tan, so arguably all of these things do harm society.

To be explicitly clear I believe it is possible to allow things in order to maximize individual liberty, whilst acknowledging that allowing them often does not help the individual or society.

viques · 19/06/2025 12:25

UnlockedXCX · 17/06/2025 19:58

This is true. But I think, for example, that a man can become a 'trans woman'. To me that is just a subcategory of man. If I'm being generous maybe they do occupy the social idea of a 'woman', but of course, that does not mean they're female/an actual woman.

I'm still working through these thoughts!

I think if you start telling trans identifying men that they are a subset of men there will be tears before bedtime. The whole point is they think the world should be treating them as the women they feel they are, allowing them to use women only spaces, re state the language we choose to use about ourselves and our female bodies, take women only awards, jobs and opportunities, sporting medals etc etc etc. Sports bodies for example have discovered that offering a third category in which trans identifying men can compete fairly results in a resounding silence and no takers.

Many of them don’t even try too hard, they think we will roll over and play nice at the feet of any bearded, muscled , pink legging wearing man in a dress.

It’s about misogyny, physical power, entitlement and also the resentful feelings of inferiority when they realise that intelligent, articulate women are fully capable of doing anything in the world ( apart from fathering children) that we set our minds too, and that material, social and financial success is not dependent on owning a penis.

Oh, and for some it’s the sexual kink, which has nothing to do with gender but everything to do with using other people, ie women, as the background in your perverted fantasy.

MrsAlgernon · 19/06/2025 12:29

I feel same about BIID as I do about gender dysphoria - sense of helplessness about individuals afflicted with it - it's not like they have chosen this. That resources should go into improving effectiveness of therapies rather than "well lets break down legal barriers to removing healthy limbs for sake of few individuals". I am off to google if there's elective limb removal literature now)

There's only to hoping that BIID doesn't have as quite reality denying basis as man saying he is a woman and good luck with turning it into trans-abled movement, glorifying disability fetishes and flags to be decorated in nurseries.

viques · 19/06/2025 12:29

Annoyedone · 19/06/2025 05:30

That’s cool. You can share any spaces you personally own with whoever you choose.

Exactly this. Only thing is though, you don’t get to choose for other people.

AltitudeCheck · 19/06/2025 12:37

@JamieCannister I think sex matters when it comes to sports, health care, safe spaces when people are vulnerable and for ensuring fair treatment in education and employment for example.

Also recognising that gender (unfortunately) matters, in so much as stereotypes exist around what is considered masculine/ feminine... not just in the heads of people who want to change gender but in many other people's minds, in aspects of society and conscious and unconscious bias. Gender matters because conforming (or not) to gender-norms still has a consequence.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 12:42

viques · 19/06/2025 12:25

I think if you start telling trans identifying men that they are a subset of men there will be tears before bedtime. The whole point is they think the world should be treating them as the women they feel they are, allowing them to use women only spaces, re state the language we choose to use about ourselves and our female bodies, take women only awards, jobs and opportunities, sporting medals etc etc etc. Sports bodies for example have discovered that offering a third category in which trans identifying men can compete fairly results in a resounding silence and no takers.

Many of them don’t even try too hard, they think we will roll over and play nice at the feet of any bearded, muscled , pink legging wearing man in a dress.

It’s about misogyny, physical power, entitlement and also the resentful feelings of inferiority when they realise that intelligent, articulate women are fully capable of doing anything in the world ( apart from fathering children) that we set our minds too, and that material, social and financial success is not dependent on owning a penis.

Oh, and for some it’s the sexual kink, which has nothing to do with gender but everything to do with using other people, ie women, as the background in your perverted fantasy.

The whole point is they think the world should be treating them as the women they feel they are, allowing them to use women only spaces, re state the language we choose to use about ourselves and our female bodies, take women only awards, jobs and opportunities, sporting medals etc etc etc.

The thing is, though, they don't actually want to be treated like women. They want everyone to pretend that they are women, whilst treating them like the men they are, with the male privilege they believe they deserve.

If society actually treated them like women, we would be saying, "Women, know your place. The world does not revolve around you and your needs. You are not important. We don't care about your identity, to be perfectly honest we don't even care about your safety and dignity. We might claim to care, but the moment actually doing something about it inconveniences us in any way, we won't do it. We will say there are more important things. We will say that your wishes and needs and rights are trivial in the grand scheme of things, and there are more important things to worry about right now. Your will never get to the top of the list of important things to worry about. So just put up and shut up, nobody cares."

What gender critical feminists are saying to trans people is a far more gentle version of the above. What we are saying is more like, "Trans people, please be reasonable. You are not the only people whose needs should be considered. You are important, but you are not more important than others. Your identity is important to you, as ours is to us, and whilst your safety and dignity matters, so does ours. It's not that we don't care, but if caring about you requires us to put our own needs last, we don't think that is reasonable. We understand that your own rights are a high priority for you, just as ours are a high priority for us. If you stop fighting against us, we will stop fighting against you, but we cannot support you in your aims if it is to our own detriment. So please, be reasonable, discuss this with us like grown ups, and let's try to find a way to balance everyone's rights."

But they interpret the latter - which does represent a loss of male privilege from the point of view of someone who has grown up in a society built by and for the benefit of members of their own sex - as transphobia.

They are right that they are not being treated like women. But they are getting preferential treatment compared to women. If they actually were treated like women, they would not like it one bit.

Ironically, treating them like women would probably also greatly reduce their access to "gender affirming care", because the NHS would suddenly not have the budget for it anymore, and even trans people in their 30s would be told they could not have treatment which might cause the loss of their fertility, in case they change their mind about having children. (Which would be no bad thing, actually.) The medical profession treats adult women like children who aren't competent to make decisions about what happens to their own bodies, and trans identifying children like adults who are mature enough to give informed consent to anything.

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 12:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 12:42

The whole point is they think the world should be treating them as the women they feel they are, allowing them to use women only spaces, re state the language we choose to use about ourselves and our female bodies, take women only awards, jobs and opportunities, sporting medals etc etc etc.

The thing is, though, they don't actually want to be treated like women. They want everyone to pretend that they are women, whilst treating them like the men they are, with the male privilege they believe they deserve.

If society actually treated them like women, we would be saying, "Women, know your place. The world does not revolve around you and your needs. You are not important. We don't care about your identity, to be perfectly honest we don't even care about your safety and dignity. We might claim to care, but the moment actually doing something about it inconveniences us in any way, we won't do it. We will say there are more important things. We will say that your wishes and needs and rights are trivial in the grand scheme of things, and there are more important things to worry about right now. Your will never get to the top of the list of important things to worry about. So just put up and shut up, nobody cares."

What gender critical feminists are saying to trans people is a far more gentle version of the above. What we are saying is more like, "Trans people, please be reasonable. You are not the only people whose needs should be considered. You are important, but you are not more important than others. Your identity is important to you, as ours is to us, and whilst your safety and dignity matters, so does ours. It's not that we don't care, but if caring about you requires us to put our own needs last, we don't think that is reasonable. We understand that your own rights are a high priority for you, just as ours are a high priority for us. If you stop fighting against us, we will stop fighting against you, but we cannot support you in your aims if it is to our own detriment. So please, be reasonable, discuss this with us like grown ups, and let's try to find a way to balance everyone's rights."

But they interpret the latter - which does represent a loss of male privilege from the point of view of someone who has grown up in a society built by and for the benefit of members of their own sex - as transphobia.

They are right that they are not being treated like women. But they are getting preferential treatment compared to women. If they actually were treated like women, they would not like it one bit.

Ironically, treating them like women would probably also greatly reduce their access to "gender affirming care", because the NHS would suddenly not have the budget for it anymore, and even trans people in their 30s would be told they could not have treatment which might cause the loss of their fertility, in case they change their mind about having children. (Which would be no bad thing, actually.) The medical profession treats adult women like children who aren't competent to make decisions about what happens to their own bodies, and trans identifying children like adults who are mature enough to give informed consent to anything.

The thing is, though, they don't actually want to be treated like women. They want everyone to pretend that they are women, whilst treating them like the men they are, with the male privilege they believe they deserve.

This is such a crucial point

Dumbo12 · 19/06/2025 13:02

MrsAlgernon · 19/06/2025 11:22

Short answer: I really don't know.

Rambling: I am very uncomfortable with idea of banning it outright. While - like many of you I can't stand egg culture, replacing material reality with 1984 language and tightly policed groupthink behaviours, unbelievably delusional denials in trans communities. Sceptical of narratives that transitioning provides mental relief.

but I'm also worried we are punching down on crippling mental condition that gets label gender dysphoria and that we might be too dismissive of it. And that "well, don't transition! just get therapy" isn't cutting it.

If we should affirm the beliefs ofone mental illness, should we not affirm all the beliefs generated by all mental illness?
So we should offer gastric banding to people with anorexia, everyone who believes they are god should be obeyed by those around them? What about those people who believe that their neighbour is the devil and should be dead?

Dwimmer · 19/06/2025 13:08

It is worth considering the OCD cycle here and how it might be applicable to those with ‘gender dysphoria’ (I am sure a similar cycle exists for AGP/sissy porn users)

Do you support transitioning at all?
Dwimmer · 19/06/2025 13:10

For OCD this cycle needs to be broken if people are to recover. Accommodating compulsions just leads to worsening of OCD.

JamieCannister · 19/06/2025 19:40

AltitudeCheck · 19/06/2025 12:37

@JamieCannister I think sex matters when it comes to sports, health care, safe spaces when people are vulnerable and for ensuring fair treatment in education and employment for example.

Also recognising that gender (unfortunately) matters, in so much as stereotypes exist around what is considered masculine/ feminine... not just in the heads of people who want to change gender but in many other people's minds, in aspects of society and conscious and unconscious bias. Gender matters because conforming (or not) to gender-norms still has a consequence.

Edited

Can you name a place where people should be separate by gender not sex? In my view all places should be single sex or mixed sex, with nothing separated by gender.

PennyAnnLane · 19/06/2025 19:56

JamieCannister · 19/06/2025 19:40

Can you name a place where people should be separate by gender not sex? In my view all places should be single sex or mixed sex, with nothing separated by gender.

Like maybe at the hairdressers/barbers, but that’s about it.

Coatsoff42 · 19/06/2025 20:02

PennyAnnLane · 19/06/2025 19:56

Like maybe at the hairdressers/barbers, but that’s about it.

yes! Men getting a ladies haircut should pay full price. Trans women at my hair dressers pay the men’s price!

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