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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good Law Project's latest claim - fact check?

1000 replies

teawamutu · 17/06/2025 18:14

I'm sure there must be some arrant bollocks in here somewhere, because Jolyon.

But is there anything worrying in this?

goodlawproject.org/ehrc-backs-down-on-single-sex-toilets/

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20
DiamondThrone · 19/06/2025 09:10

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Aaaaaaand there we have it. Supporting women, actual women, is fascist 🙄

Brainworm · 19/06/2025 09:10

People claiming that the cries for guidance evidences the lack of clarity of the SC ruling are conflating issues. The SC ruling is very clear about single sex provision and what it means.

What people are confused about is how to manage the upset and anger of trans people and their allies when executing the law. Many can’t conceive taking action that isn’t affirming of trans people’s identities. This is what they are seeking guidance on. I think they are hoping the guidance will provide a magic wand so everyone is happy and they won’t have to deal with any upset.

There will always be a winner and a loser in the game of single sex versus single gender. Females fought hard to win back ‘single sex’. Single gender now need to decide what is worth fighting for/ winnable. The safe bet is making the case for safe and dignified unisex provision to sit alongside single sex provision. This is expensive so they will need to fight for it. However, I expect many will chose to continue to fight for the inclusion of trans people in single sex provision for the opposite sex. This will never work…..the majority of society will never agree to this

Tandora · 19/06/2025 09:10

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Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 09:12

In fact, getting back to the Scottish Government, that directly feeds into my question:

Why should a group of male people should get additional privileges based on their philosophical belief about their identity, one that doesn't reflect material reality? Particularly since no one seems to be able to tell me a comparative group in society that gets such additional privileges that over ride the single sex provisions that are legitimate under our laws.

Because why should a group of male people get to not only apply for board / panel positions for male people, why should a group of male people also get access to apply for positions that were designated to be for female people only?

This is just another one of those additional privileges that are being sought.

I really look forward to the coherent and well evidenced explanation.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 09:12

Oh and BY THE WAY, only a complete and utter IMBECILE could describe the politically neutral Supreme Court upholding the women's rights enshrined in the landmark equality legislation enacted by a left wing government which also gave important protections to trans people as "fascist".

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 09:14

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 09:09

The context in which the law was created is that parliament was attempting to create protections for multiple groups of people based on need.

Trans people were already taken into account in the Equality Act. They have their own protected characteristic.

What you are effectively arguing is that parliament intended trans people to be able to benefit from (at least) two protected characteristics, and that female people should have none.

What you are arguing is that parliament thought it was worth creating a protected characteristic called "sex", but that it intended each sex to be a mixed sex group based on identity, and that it did not intend for the law to actually recognise biological sex as a relevant factor at all.

What are you basing that on? Can you point us to the relevant place in Hansard where parliament were discussing this and said, "But obviously sex doesn't really mean sex in this context, it means identity"? What evidence to this effect do you think the Supreme Court judges missed?

There IS only one type of feminism. The kind that fights for the rights of female people.

You are not a feminist, you are a men's rights activist. I actually think your brand of men's rights activism is more toxic than the regular kind. At least they aren't pretending to be feminists.

And luckily for us Hansard is a very good recording of the discussions that fed into the vote on that law.

But... apparently...

DailArden · 19/06/2025 09:14

Does para 2.9 address the problem on another Thread that a father is having with a Brighton school?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 09:15

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What's wrong with British feminism?

Women's rights are more extensive and better protected in Britain* than just about anywhere else in the world, so British feminists must be doing something right.

(Sticking with the word "Britain" rather than "UK" here, because abortion rights in Northern Ireland are still an issue.)

Shortshriftandlethal · 19/06/2025 09:16

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The Term 'Gender Critical' was coined in the early days of the resistance...as a short-hand to describe people who understood that sex was real and the gender identity theory was predicated on sex based stereotypes.

It has become an unfortunate cliche now - used to reduce and characterise people who understand sex based reality. There is nothing "fascistic" about understanding that sex exists.

British women have led the way in the push back against damaging radical genderism. The world watches and then eventually follows.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 09:17

Brainworm · 19/06/2025 09:10

People claiming that the cries for guidance evidences the lack of clarity of the SC ruling are conflating issues. The SC ruling is very clear about single sex provision and what it means.

What people are confused about is how to manage the upset and anger of trans people and their allies when executing the law. Many can’t conceive taking action that isn’t affirming of trans people’s identities. This is what they are seeking guidance on. I think they are hoping the guidance will provide a magic wand so everyone is happy and they won’t have to deal with any upset.

There will always be a winner and a loser in the game of single sex versus single gender. Females fought hard to win back ‘single sex’. Single gender now need to decide what is worth fighting for/ winnable. The safe bet is making the case for safe and dignified unisex provision to sit alongside single sex provision. This is expensive so they will need to fight for it. However, I expect many will chose to continue to fight for the inclusion of trans people in single sex provision for the opposite sex. This will never work…..the majority of society will never agree to this

There's no lack of clarity.

Just because they don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't clear.

The most charitable explanation here is that they don't understand how this can be the answer, because it contradicts what Stonewall has told them for all these years.

But you can't blame the Supreme Court or the EHRC for that.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 09:17

"Regarding your other claims - I understand that you believe that there is only one variety of feminism - the contemporary, fascist variety, known as 'gender critical feminism'. These claims are not worthy of respect since they are demonstrably false, both in theory and in activism."

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Another component of law that directly disagrees with you. PLUS so does the majority of the UK population.

This is worthy of being described as tilting at windmills.

And you also know what they say about accusations being projection!

'These claims are not worthy of respect since they are demonstrably false, both in theory and in activism."

well done!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 09:19

Shortshriftandlethal · 19/06/2025 09:16

The Term 'Gender Critical' was coined in the early days of the resistance...as a short-hand to describe people who understood that sex was real and the gender identity theory was predicated on sex based stereotypes.

It has become an unfortunate cliche now - used to reduce and characterise people who understand sex based reality. There is nothing "fascistic" about understanding that sex exists.

British women have led the way in the push back against damaging radical genderism. The world watches and then eventually follows.

This has made me feel proud to be British again, after feeling quite embarrassed to be British during the last ten years or so.

It shows that we haven't lost the plot, and that we are in general sensible, fair minded people whose instinct is to be kind but with low tolerance for bullshit.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 09:33

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 09:17

"Regarding your other claims - I understand that you believe that there is only one variety of feminism - the contemporary, fascist variety, known as 'gender critical feminism'. These claims are not worthy of respect since they are demonstrably false, both in theory and in activism."

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Another component of law that directly disagrees with you. PLUS so does the majority of the UK population.

This is worthy of being described as tilting at windmills.

And you also know what they say about accusations being projection!

'These claims are not worthy of respect since they are demonstrably false, both in theory and in activism."

well done!

By the way, I am laughing because I assume you intended this as humour.

spannasaurus · 19/06/2025 09:36

If the protected characteristic of sex in the EA was always intended to be biological sex plus people with a GRC then why wasn't this specified in the legislation when it was drafted.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 09:37

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“Fascist” 🤣

you are funny.

LastTrainsEast · 19/06/2025 09:44

spannasaurus · 19/06/2025 09:36

If the protected characteristic of sex in the EA was always intended to be biological sex plus people with a GRC then why wasn't this specified in the legislation when it was drafted.

misread post.

KnottyAuty · 19/06/2025 09:57

Sorry to pop back to the issue of the SC judgement being “legal erasure” and that’s what makes it unfair. That claim really irritates me because it just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

First let’s look at this alleged erasure through the lens of the equality act? There are 9 protected characteristics which cover everyone in society. The idea is to balance rights and prevent discrimination for everyone in society, not just minority or under represented groups. “Trans” is not specifically one of the 9 but it’s termed Gender Reassignment and trans rights and protections are included there. It’s defined as a choice to live in a gender different to sex at birth. No requirement to have any treatment of any kind. Someone in this category does not lose one characteristic (sex) in order to get another (gender reassignment). They have the protection of both. They also have a third protection for if they are perceived to be the opposite sex. So there is no “legal erasure” there as far as I can see. Quite the opposite - women have one protection while trans people potentially have the benefit of 3!

Also there are the basic human rights plus the GRA protections against in addition to everyone else. Plus the opportunity to change key documents (passport, drivers license etc). Not to mention that public policy has been overwhelmingly skewed (unlawfully) toward trans rights over and above the other 8 protected characteristics for 10-15 years. So being front and centre of public policy (NHS, police, civil service etc etc) doesn’t look much like “policy erasure” either.

Then there’s the YouGov polling which indicates that the vast majority of people in the UK are happy to use names a preferred pronouns. Very much in the live and let live approach. So that’s not “social erasure” in any sense that I can see.

So with all of the above it’s possible for trans to freely exist legally and socially in the UK with the right to live without harassment or discrimination. So far so good.

Past arguments about erasure and human rights for trans people always seem to go back to Goodwin’s European court case in 2002 which was about not being able to marry, adopt, access to financial services and retirement age equalisation etc. None of those things were open to trans people at that time which wasnt OK and breached their human rights. That was legal “invisibility” but those matters are no longer an issue. Trans gender identity is now acknowledged and afforded legal protection and equal access to services like everyone else.

But looking at the GRA it is very much (from my POV) about how trans people interact with the state. Instead the contentious issues mostly come out of how trans people expect to interact with other individuals. There seems to be an expectation that trans people should have more human rights than others - which isn’t reasonable.

Because in relation to other people, demanding access to all spaces and services for the opposite sex is a social and legal over reach. The claim is based on a requirement that everyone else in society must share the belief that someone can change sex. And they don’t.

The next problem is that in addition, trans people require everyone to agree to how trans people want to manifest their belief - by being treated like the opposite sex in all regards.

Unfortunately for Tandora we live in a liberal democracy so we can’t compel people to believe any particular religion or belief. My Muslim neighbours can’t force me to believe in Islam & insist that I attend Mosque. The state cannot insist that we all become Anglicans and attend weekly Evensong. My maiden aunt can’t force me to believe the moon is made of cheese. My trans colleague can’t make me believe that someone can change sex. But most importantly no one is “erased” as a result of these differences?! We just have to compromise and work around each other to live amicably.

Unfortunately thats not possible when some believers demand rights that impinge on other people’s human rights to fairness, privacy, dignity and safety. My human rights are breached if my ability to choose is removed and someone else decides to remove my boundaries and ability to consent.

By Tandora’s logic in order to avoid the erasure of trans people I will have to give up my GC beliefs and give up my right to privacy and dignity to share changing rooms with unfamiliar males. I must give up a place on a female sports team to a male. References to woman or mother (key parts of my identity) have to be scratched out of NHS policy. So we women are being asked to give up our beliefs, spaces, services, words to facilitate trans beliefs. Thats an authoritarian state and not what democracy looks like. What’s been imposed on women in the last 10 years is much closer erasure than how the state has treated trans people. Thank goodness it’s stopping and some sort of reasonable balance will return. But this thoughtless removal of women’s rights has caused a deep deep wound for many women. And there are growing numbers of us. It won’t be forgotten any time soon. But simply I will not accept Shon Faye’s assertion to women “enjoy your erasure”

Ultimately tho, human right laws and principles are on GC’s side, a third unisex way & third spaces being added to existing provision is the lawful and respectful way we will all eventually learn to live together better. Because there’s no reasonable or balanced alternative to meet everyone’s human rights. And any attempt by Moylon & Co to try otherwise in the European Courts is a lost cause.

teawamutu · 19/06/2025 09:59

Brainworm · 19/06/2025 09:10

People claiming that the cries for guidance evidences the lack of clarity of the SC ruling are conflating issues. The SC ruling is very clear about single sex provision and what it means.

What people are confused about is how to manage the upset and anger of trans people and their allies when executing the law. Many can’t conceive taking action that isn’t affirming of trans people’s identities. This is what they are seeking guidance on. I think they are hoping the guidance will provide a magic wand so everyone is happy and they won’t have to deal with any upset.

There will always be a winner and a loser in the game of single sex versus single gender. Females fought hard to win back ‘single sex’. Single gender now need to decide what is worth fighting for/ winnable. The safe bet is making the case for safe and dignified unisex provision to sit alongside single sex provision. This is expensive so they will need to fight for it. However, I expect many will chose to continue to fight for the inclusion of trans people in single sex provision for the opposite sex. This will never work…..the majority of society will never agree to this

Such a brilliant summary of the reactions.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 19/06/2025 10:02

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rik mayall 80s GIF

fascist?

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 10:03

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Why? “very limited/ superficial.

Because McCloud and Whittle didn’t get their time in court? I suspect that having seen both of them in action, neither of them would have been able to produce a coherent argument that would change the judgement.

Did you notice the impact Strangio had on the Skrmetti case? If the testimony lacks convincing evidence relevant to the case, it is not going to change the outcome.

borntobequiet · 19/06/2025 10:03

Tandora · 19/06/2025 08:30

If there was only one, and entirely obvious way, to interpret and elaborate the law, we wouldn't need guidance now would we?

I understand that accepting other people are different to you or hold different opinions to you may not be a strong suit, but surely you can at least understand the above basic point?

Guidance from responsible bodies is appropriate and necessary in many aspects of law, because law is detailed and complex. For example there is statutory guidance that must be followed in aspects of health and social care. This is because the state recognises that, first, even legal professionals may not be fully conversant with the law as it stands, and organisations need help to ensure they can comply with the law without expending huge sums of money on their own legal advice.

DontStopMe · 19/06/2025 10:05

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2025 10:02

fascist?

The Young Ones is exactly what this reminded me of.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 10:07

spannasaurus · 19/06/2025 09:36

If the protected characteristic of sex in the EA was always intended to be biological sex plus people with a GRC then why wasn't this specified in the legislation when it was drafted.

Why indeed.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 10:10

KnottyAuty · 19/06/2025 09:57

Sorry to pop back to the issue of the SC judgement being “legal erasure” and that’s what makes it unfair. That claim really irritates me because it just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

First let’s look at this alleged erasure through the lens of the equality act? There are 9 protected characteristics which cover everyone in society. The idea is to balance rights and prevent discrimination for everyone in society, not just minority or under represented groups. “Trans” is not specifically one of the 9 but it’s termed Gender Reassignment and trans rights and protections are included there. It’s defined as a choice to live in a gender different to sex at birth. No requirement to have any treatment of any kind. Someone in this category does not lose one characteristic (sex) in order to get another (gender reassignment). They have the protection of both. They also have a third protection for if they are perceived to be the opposite sex. So there is no “legal erasure” there as far as I can see. Quite the opposite - women have one protection while trans people potentially have the benefit of 3!

Also there are the basic human rights plus the GRA protections against in addition to everyone else. Plus the opportunity to change key documents (passport, drivers license etc). Not to mention that public policy has been overwhelmingly skewed (unlawfully) toward trans rights over and above the other 8 protected characteristics for 10-15 years. So being front and centre of public policy (NHS, police, civil service etc etc) doesn’t look much like “policy erasure” either.

Then there’s the YouGov polling which indicates that the vast majority of people in the UK are happy to use names a preferred pronouns. Very much in the live and let live approach. So that’s not “social erasure” in any sense that I can see.

So with all of the above it’s possible for trans to freely exist legally and socially in the UK with the right to live without harassment or discrimination. So far so good.

Past arguments about erasure and human rights for trans people always seem to go back to Goodwin’s European court case in 2002 which was about not being able to marry, adopt, access to financial services and retirement age equalisation etc. None of those things were open to trans people at that time which wasnt OK and breached their human rights. That was legal “invisibility” but those matters are no longer an issue. Trans gender identity is now acknowledged and afforded legal protection and equal access to services like everyone else.

But looking at the GRA it is very much (from my POV) about how trans people interact with the state. Instead the contentious issues mostly come out of how trans people expect to interact with other individuals. There seems to be an expectation that trans people should have more human rights than others - which isn’t reasonable.

Because in relation to other people, demanding access to all spaces and services for the opposite sex is a social and legal over reach. The claim is based on a requirement that everyone else in society must share the belief that someone can change sex. And they don’t.

The next problem is that in addition, trans people require everyone to agree to how trans people want to manifest their belief - by being treated like the opposite sex in all regards.

Unfortunately for Tandora we live in a liberal democracy so we can’t compel people to believe any particular religion or belief. My Muslim neighbours can’t force me to believe in Islam & insist that I attend Mosque. The state cannot insist that we all become Anglicans and attend weekly Evensong. My maiden aunt can’t force me to believe the moon is made of cheese. My trans colleague can’t make me believe that someone can change sex. But most importantly no one is “erased” as a result of these differences?! We just have to compromise and work around each other to live amicably.

Unfortunately thats not possible when some believers demand rights that impinge on other people’s human rights to fairness, privacy, dignity and safety. My human rights are breached if my ability to choose is removed and someone else decides to remove my boundaries and ability to consent.

By Tandora’s logic in order to avoid the erasure of trans people I will have to give up my GC beliefs and give up my right to privacy and dignity to share changing rooms with unfamiliar males. I must give up a place on a female sports team to a male. References to woman or mother (key parts of my identity) have to be scratched out of NHS policy. So we women are being asked to give up our beliefs, spaces, services, words to facilitate trans beliefs. Thats an authoritarian state and not what democracy looks like. What’s been imposed on women in the last 10 years is much closer erasure than how the state has treated trans people. Thank goodness it’s stopping and some sort of reasonable balance will return. But this thoughtless removal of women’s rights has caused a deep deep wound for many women. And there are growing numbers of us. It won’t be forgotten any time soon. But simply I will not accept Shon Faye’s assertion to women “enjoy your erasure”

Ultimately tho, human right laws and principles are on GC’s side, a third unisex way & third spaces being added to existing provision is the lawful and respectful way we will all eventually learn to live together better. Because there’s no reasonable or balanced alternative to meet everyone’s human rights. And any attempt by Moylon & Co to try otherwise in the European Courts is a lost cause.

happy harry potter GIF by BAFTA

Excellent post.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 10:12

DontStopMe · 19/06/2025 10:05

The Young Ones is exactly what this reminded me of.

Haha I thought that too 😂

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