What do people get from coming here to 'scold' us?

[CassOle]

My first (not completely serious) thoughts are: their arse handed to them and screenshots.

However, is there more to it?

Why do some long term posters come back again and again with the same arguments that haven't worked before? Do they think that it might work this time?

Then there are the 'my Trans friends are lovely' scolders. Do they really think that we should forget safeguarding, biological reality, single-sex provision etc. becuase they have lovely friends?

Lastly, the thread ploppers. If we are lucky, they might even reply. The one last night might have been getting sexual kicks from it, but we have had other ploppers who just appeared to want to tell us how mean and nasty we are.

None of these (that I have seen) have brought good, well reasoned arguments to back up their points. Maybe that is what causes people to scold and run, or plop and run, as when the arguments cannot stand up to scrutiny (or they have the screenshots), they stop posting.

This then brings me back to the long term posters who are TWAW. I would not like it if they were driven off this board, as it is a public board and as long as the T&C are kept to, they have every right to post. It must be hard posting against the main opinion on any matter, so they must get 'something' from it. Maybe Chris et al will be kind enough to explain this from their point of view?

Thanks for the reply L00py.

I hope that we have more replies from your side, as it is very insightful to read your point of view.

It is interesting that you began with an ad hominem. I also found it informative that you consider yourself a feminist and that the threads you post on are 'anti trans'.

It’s not just a “you” issue. Everyone knows it’s illogical. Even genderists. That’s why they can’t defend it rationally without resorting to insults, bad faith twisting and emotional blackmail.

I think that falls into the general advice of listen and read whatever you come across. Even if you don’t agree.

Obviously, there has to be some filtering. Few people have the time to read everything they want to (or even don’t want to). But as much of it as possible.

It can indicate the current trend of discussion points or even tell what is coming soon.

What have I missed? What happened last night?

Indeed - always thd positioning as being “anti trans” rather than pro women

and if FWR was an echo chamber posts like loopys would just be automatically deleted (as they would be on Reddit for example) but it isn’t so they're not, they stand in all their glory

Very curious too! Was it deleted?

A thread was started by someone who claimed to be interested in debate as long as we used their chosen pronouns. Questions were posted for this poster to answer. The replies were dodgy. The thread was hidden.

😂🤣😂🤣

Oh so funny!

You would be surprised just how many men believe a) that their opinions will automatically be listened to and taken seriously and b) that they can make women change their views and behaviour simply because a man has spoken.

It's very difficult for us women to understand this mindset, because we're socialised by society into assuming the opposite about ourselves. But I believe that men who come in here to scold us do so under the genuine misapprehension that we'll go "Oh gosh, you're right, of course! I've been so silly and hysterical. I agree with everything you say, and I apologise sincerely for my previous uppity, karen-y behaviour."

someone who claimed to be interested in debate as long as we used their chosen pronouns

Surely their "chosen pronouns" on any thread would be "you" which is not gendered in English? I wonder why they felt they needed to make that demand

I don’t want to mention any names but there have been a few of these types here over the years.

Because control, in any form and to any degree, is the aim?

And of course they abound all over the rest of the internet.

OK I'll bite, as one of the posters that some would probably consider fall into this category.

I post because in addition to the transphobia that exists here I see the creeping homophobia appear as well. These posts and comments clearly feel at home on this board, for example we have threads dedicated to minimising homophobic hate crimes - questioning why the theft of pride flags should be considered a hate crime for instance recently.

There have also been plenty of threads that have hero-worshipped Posie Parker / Kellie Jay Keen, who has called for landlords to refuse housing to trans people and employers to refuse employment to trans people, simply on the basis of their trans status.
Of course such actions would be illegal, so I find it alarming that she is worshipped so much on these boards and that people are clamouring for her to be reinstated (I understand she has been banned previously from Mumsnet).

The prevailing idea on FWR is that they have all the questions answered, and it is a straightforward fait accompli, and anyone deviating from their perspective just hasn’t thought things through enough, but of course this is not the case – why otherwise would the best countries in the world to be a women be putting in place gender self ID, and why have they not slipped down the ranks in all the major measures of women’s wellbeing and equality with men in all the years since their doing so?

These countries clearly do not think Mumsnet FWR have all the right answers, and they are doing far better in all the major international tables for women than then UK is.

These are the facts, and as Mumsnet FWR posters often like to crow “we deal with the facts” - well there is a fact for FWR, but FWR doesn’t like that one much.

They also manage perfectly well dealing with more complex cases without compromising their overall position for gender self ID

Eg.
www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/denmarks-decade-of-self-id-cools-debate-on-trans-rights

I am sure this point is repetitive to some, just as I find much of FWR anecdotes repetitive and unedifying, but nobody has given a serious response to this international big picture point.

Of course it is well known that the countries doing the best for women are the countries that are also doing best for transpeople; as culture and politics shift and trans rights get sidelined and trans people are more in the line of fire, facing more hostility and prejudice, sure enough women also slide into the line of fire. Policies impacting all of us negatively also start being introduced. Trump’s America will be a practical worked example of this over the next few years.

So, knowing this to be the case, of course I would want to highlight that.

No they don't

It wouldn't even really be possible. All forums centred around trans rights are designated 'safe spaces', safe from dissent, and you'd be banned and deleted within hours if not minutes. You'd never get a days' long debate with non-abusive posts allowed to stand like happen here.

Btw I am sure they do get trolls but I am also sure that they are common garden male trolls, not feminists who actually have serious points to make about women's rights.

Damn, where is that laugh response when I need it!

That's not an argument. It's a contradiction!

I didn’t get my bet in on time…. 😁

I wonder why they felt they needed to make that demand

Because it couldn't be adhered to. People with that mindset want to be disobeyed - something else to put on their victimhood list. Although how dare we disobey them!

I suppose I don't think of it as scolding- I post occasionally (under various names) because this is a public website that seems set up for debate. And then once I've made my points and it's clear the majority don't agree and are never going to agree, but neither is anyone changing my mind, I toddle off. I'm not sure there's any particular moral value in the same back and forth 300 times.

It's good to have an answer and maybe that will encourage more.
It's a bit depressing that 'thinking highly' of oneself seems to be said as a criticism. Though I understand it. I've spent my life, as have many many women, with 'imposter syndrome', which i think of as a symptom of being a female in a patriarchy.
However, objectively, I have got a very useful and out of the ordinary academic and career background which gives me knowledge relevant to the trans issue.

We may not agree, but I appreciate you responding so politely and I apologise for my sharp opening.

Completely. The ones who believe that it's just that no one's instructed the wims on what to think yet.

Exactly, when does anyone ever attempt to insult a man by saying he thinks very highly of himself? His response would likely be “yes, and?”