Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sibling in law

989 replies

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

OP posts:
TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 19:26

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 15:01

I appreciate that this one of the things that people find most ambiguous and therefore difficult, but my identity isn’t linked exclusively to sex.

I’m female because of biology. I’m a woman because of my internal sense of self, which is linked to my experiences, relationships, place in the world I specifically live in, the influences in that world. I cannot explain for anyone what that’s meant to (or not meant to) feel like for them, because I’m not you. But all of those things are far more important to me than biology.

For example, I’m haven’t achieved anything because of or in spite of my sex. But I have achieved things in spite of my background. That matters more to me.

I think it’s quite clear from threads like this one that sharing biology with some people isn’t enough to place you in a “group” with them. Certainly not socially. There are many here I share biology with but identify with in absolutely no other way whatsoever, and I would actually prefer to not share physical spaces with them over the people who they think are the issue.

'Identity' is merely personality. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

There are 8 billion people on the planet, two sexes, and 8 billion personalities.

That's it.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 19:47

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 16:24

Again, personally, I refer to trans women as just that, a category of woman.

That doesn’t change you being a woman, in whatever that means for you.

I also used banana apple, in the analogy we’re labouring, for the same reason.

The difference between trans woman and woman, IMO, is biology. Which I don’t dispute anyone having.

A male with penis and testicles in a dress is not any kind of 'woman'.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 19:52

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 15:01

I appreciate that this one of the things that people find most ambiguous and therefore difficult, but my identity isn’t linked exclusively to sex.

I’m female because of biology. I’m a woman because of my internal sense of self, which is linked to my experiences, relationships, place in the world I specifically live in, the influences in that world. I cannot explain for anyone what that’s meant to (or not meant to) feel like for them, because I’m not you. But all of those things are far more important to me than biology.

For example, I’m haven’t achieved anything because of or in spite of my sex. But I have achieved things in spite of my background. That matters more to me.

I think it’s quite clear from threads like this one that sharing biology with some people isn’t enough to place you in a “group” with them. Certainly not socially. There are many here I share biology with but identify with in absolutely no other way whatsoever, and I would actually prefer to not share physical spaces with them over the people who they think are the issue.

I appreciate that this one of the things that people find most ambiguous and therefore difficult, but my identity isn’t linked exclusively to sex.

None of us here said it was. In fact, the only people who say their 'identity' is exclusively link to sex, is transactivists.

Your personality isn't linked to sex. That doesn't mean you are not a member of the oppressed sex class, a class which has historically, and still is, oppressed based on that sex. And our rights, based on our sex.

drspouse · 17/06/2025 19:58

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 16:26

I have answered how I define woman, and female, and why I see them as different.

Sexism is based on sex, female, which we all share and isn’t something I’ve ever attempted to deny having.

So we can still fight being discriminated against on the basis of sex, because that’s not the same as gender.

So transwomen (i.e. men) aren't subject to sexism, you agree they aren't female.
So what makes them women?
You can't have a word for women as a category of humans that doesn't include some women.
You don't appear to think all women are female.
You've told us what you think makes you a woman, but what do all women have in common?
Or do you think it's not a word that can be defined? In which case why should we believe anyone who says they are one?

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 17/06/2025 20:06

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:54

Because the Supreme Court judgment is not everything.

Because rights can be taken away.

Because members of the current Labour government are making noises about how the Equality Act should be amended to recognise trans women are women.

Because the International Olympic Committee said "everyone agrees that trans women are women" to justify its decision to let men compete in women's categories.

Because Lisa Nandy said "trans women are women" in order to justify male rapists being housed in women's prisons.

Because most rape crisis organisations have said "trans women are women" in order to justify not letting female rape survivors have the female only support they need and deserve.

Because not everyone lives in the UK and feminists right for women's rights worldwide.

Because governments can be voted into and out of power and laws can be made and unmade.

The Supreme Court confirmed that women's rights have been infringed for the last fifteen years, but it can't prevent those rights from being removed through the correct channels.

"Constant vigilance", as Mad Eye Moody would say.

Edited

Excellent post

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 20:13

DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 17:35

Well, they've legally changed their name to a male one so to not use it would be incorrect.

Name, I can do. But I won't be gaslit to deny my eyes and lived experience as a member of the oppressed sex class to call a male 'she'. That is not respectful of the oppressed sex class, nor respectful of rape survivors to demand they call their rapist she. Pronouns are based on sex. I won't call a male in blackface an African American, and I won't call a male a 'she' either. It's not respectful to gaslit the oppressed to cosplay in the oppressor's fetish.

DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 20:31

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 20:13

Name, I can do. But I won't be gaslit to deny my eyes and lived experience as a member of the oppressed sex class to call a male 'she'. That is not respectful of the oppressed sex class, nor respectful of rape survivors to demand they call their rapist she. Pronouns are based on sex. I won't call a male in blackface an African American, and I won't call a male a 'she' either. It's not respectful to gaslit the oppressed to cosplay in the oppressor's fetish.

I see what you're saying. I don't lie and say my trans family members (I have two) are the opposite sex.

I state they are trans if asked and I do use their pronouns of choice. It doesn't offend me to use these pronouns as I know they are trans, a seperate category, not saying they have literally changed sex.

I don't think I'm being gaslit by accepting some people are trans, which is separate socially from being your bio sex. Personally and biologically they will still be the sex they're born with. But that's their own concern to manage.

I don't agree with trans women in female sport, refuges, prisons etc. but I accept that trans people exist and should be respected the same as anyone else.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 20:34

drspouse · 17/06/2025 19:58

So transwomen (i.e. men) aren't subject to sexism, you agree they aren't female.
So what makes them women?
You can't have a word for women as a category of humans that doesn't include some women.
You don't appear to think all women are female.
You've told us what you think makes you a woman, but what do all women have in common?
Or do you think it's not a word that can be defined? In which case why should we believe anyone who says they are one?

All biological females have their sex in common, and outside of that I’m not looking for commonality that most of the time isn’t there.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 20:40

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 20:34

All biological females have their sex in common, and outside of that I’m not looking for commonality that most of the time isn’t there.

But if "woman" is an identity, in your world, what is the common factor there?

How does one belong to the identity of woman?

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 20:49

So what it comes down to is confusing personality and a political sense of intellectual priviledged tribalism and belonging labelling it as gender with the unavoidable reality of sex.

Meanwhile anyone who sees this for the utter elitest bollocks it is, has to be somehow shoved into stupid boxes which can't ever be defined in law to appease those who see themselves as socially superior.

Good stuff. Glad we got there in the end.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/06/2025 21:03

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:05

I didn’t start it, someone else did last night.

Apples would probably be a better analogy for men, because one bad apple doesn’t spoil the whole the whole bunch. There are good apples, and I (again, personally) don’t blame all of them for the actions of others.

As a man, I think that's a little naïve. A bad apple can spread to those it is in contact with. Many men are vulnerable to corruption, both sexual and misuse of power. Men's sexuality can be difficult to control, and I think many women don't understand how much effort it can take to behave well when your biological urges are at their most demanding. Porn, ubiquitous and easy to access, tends to discourage self control. Changes to societal expectations, while often at least partially justified because society used to be very rigid, can make behaviour "acceptable" that is damaging. And who is most vulnerable to damage? Well, lots of people, including some men, but including virtually all women.

The fact (I claim) that men are easily led astray doesn't absolve us at all of our bad behaviour - we are responsible for our actions. But I don't like to see people minimising how dangerous any man can be if his self control is lowered.

drspouse · 17/06/2025 21:05

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 20:34

All biological females have their sex in common, and outside of that I’m not looking for commonality that most of the time isn’t there.

So you never call anyone a woman?

HousePlantEmergency · 17/06/2025 21:06

Honestly I'm just in complete despair.

No one here wishes bad will towards anyone.
Trans people need additional provision and support.
That is completely different to admitting them into a sex class that is immutable. Male or female.

And no one denies they exist, for goodness sake. Such a ridiculous teenage phrase.
Of course they exist.

No one has carte blanche to demand whatever they want purely because they 'exist'.
Utterly ridiculous.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 17/06/2025 21:25

'What do all women have in common?'

We've probably all been subject to sexual assault. Growing breasts aged 10 and being groped freely by boys at school. And again as adults. Being scared to walk alone at night.

And also.

Feeling confused by our bodies but then accepting that most girls do feel like that during puberty, then later embracing being biological women in our own individual ways due to and despite our experiences. Giving birth and breastfeeding our children. (If we can) and realising that that is the true purpose of our breasts. Not for men's titillation.

Not all women give birth, I grant that. But no boy or man has ever been through what I've been through as a woman and never will. I refuse to accept that any man 'feels' or 'thinks' like a woman in the way I've experienced my whole life.

I'm an Autistic 54 year old woman. I've played pool and drank pints in pubs since I was 16. I don't pretend to have had the same experiences as a boy growing up or a man in this world. That's just not possible.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:14

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/06/2025 21:03

As a man, I think that's a little naïve. A bad apple can spread to those it is in contact with. Many men are vulnerable to corruption, both sexual and misuse of power. Men's sexuality can be difficult to control, and I think many women don't understand how much effort it can take to behave well when your biological urges are at their most demanding. Porn, ubiquitous and easy to access, tends to discourage self control. Changes to societal expectations, while often at least partially justified because society used to be very rigid, can make behaviour "acceptable" that is damaging. And who is most vulnerable to damage? Well, lots of people, including some men, but including virtually all women.

The fact (I claim) that men are easily led astray doesn't absolve us at all of our bad behaviour - we are responsible for our actions. But I don't like to see people minimising how dangerous any man can be if his self control is lowered.

Any man can be dangerous if they just don’t control themselves?

Well, you are one, and I can’t speak on the male behalf. But what a pessimistic way to view the situation.

Porn use isn’t a uniquely male experience, and I’m not sure the whole of the male population does have the capability or inbuilt desire to not “behave well.”

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:18

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:14

Any man can be dangerous if they just don’t control themselves?

Well, you are one, and I can’t speak on the male behalf. But what a pessimistic way to view the situation.

Porn use isn’t a uniquely male experience, and I’m not sure the whole of the male population does have the capability or inbuilt desire to not “behave well.”

That's nice, but almost 99% of all sexual offences are committed by men, and 95% of the prison population are men.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

HousePlantEmergency · 17/06/2025 21:06

Honestly I'm just in complete despair.

No one here wishes bad will towards anyone.
Trans people need additional provision and support.
That is completely different to admitting them into a sex class that is immutable. Male or female.

And no one denies they exist, for goodness sake. Such a ridiculous teenage phrase.
Of course they exist.

No one has carte blanche to demand whatever they want purely because they 'exist'.
Utterly ridiculous.

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:18

That's nice, but almost 99% of all sexual offences are committed by men, and 95% of the prison population are men.

That’s also an interesting fact, but doesn’t imply that 95% of men are criminals. That’s quite different.

It also doesn’t imply that 100% of them have the capability to be if they just don’t control themselves, which is what the PP said.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:29

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

Well if they recognise themselves as being the opposite sex to the one they actually are, obviously we are not going to agree with that.

Not believing in gender doesn't amount to denying trans people's existence, any more than not believing in God doesn't amount to denying the existence of Christians.

We just don't share their beliefs, that's all.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:31

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:25

That’s also an interesting fact, but doesn’t imply that 95% of men are criminals. That’s quite different.

It also doesn’t imply that 100% of them have the capability to be if they just don’t control themselves, which is what the PP said.

I think he's better placed to comment on what men are like than most of us here.

From a woman's point of view, it is clear that pretty much 100% of men are potential rapists, if we discount, for example, men who are quadriplegic or in a persistent vegetative state.

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 22:44

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.
Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

But “their existence in the context they recognise” is not the same factually as “their existence”, is it?

I might not believe that the Jews are God’s chosen people, or that Calvinists are the Elect, but I know Jewish people and Protestants exist. I might believe myself to be unusually talented and special, but someone who doesn’t think so still knows I exist. I know of plenty of people who believe things about themselves that I simply don’t share — all of them still exist.

Indeed, I’d love everyone to see me as the brilliant, fascinating, complex, beautiful, fatally prepossessing, exotic, intriguing (and thin) woman I am in my imagination; but sadly, life tells me that other people go about their business wholly unaware of this (and yet they still seem to think I exist nevertheless).

Believing you’re something you’ve imagined in your head must be shared by everyone else or they “don’t believe you exist” is the height of narcissistic solipsism. Despite what the trans rights ideologues think, it isn’t a human right for everyone to believe exactly what you believe, nor is your “existence” contingent on it.

HousePlantEmergency · 17/06/2025 22:46

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

Ok.
I (personally) don't believe it's possible there's a god. Of any kind.
Yet - of course I acknowledge there are Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus etc etc.
Just because I don't believe in what they believe in doesn't equate to me thinking they don't 'exist'.
There are PLENTY of ideologies and sections of society that I don't relate to or feel affinity with. That doesn't mean they don't 'exist:'
It actually makes me cringe to type that. I feel like I'm 17 again, telling my mum she "just doesn't understand me!! 😭"

That would be patently absurd.

And it's absurd that you would suggest that.

Of course trans people exist - people who wish they were born another sex. And that's what it is, a wish.
It is not a green light to become part of a class you cannot "identify" into. It's already taken by the sex class that already inhabits it. Male or female.

Break the norm. Smash gender stereotypes. Stick your fingers up to people who tell you you should dress/act/behave in a certain way. I'll back you all the way.
But male/female spaces for safety and dignity are taken.
It's not hard.

Boiledbeetle · 17/06/2025 22:54

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

I don't believe there is validity in the belief of gender, it's not logically sound as it relies on a person's feelings and has no provable qualities. I also don't believe in the validity of religion for the same reasons.

HOWEVER I accept that other people may and do have totally out there indefinable and unprovable beliefs. So I accept some people think they are transgender in the same way that I accept that some people are nuns and think they are married to God.

Just because I don't share a person's belief doesn't mean I deny their existence or their choice to believe in something I may feel is ridiculous.

JanesLittleGirl · 17/06/2025 23:00

@SleeplessInWherever

I have to be honest that I am impressed by your efforts to divorce sex from gender. However, that is all that they are. Play with words, concepts, identities, experiences et al as much as you like. The bottom line is that men are men and women are women.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.