Trans sibling in law

[Primrose86]

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

Quite possibly, but it’s complicated.

I actually have a degree in Gender Studies, which those who constantly reply with comments about intelligence or confusion might find hard to believe. I recognise that quite often that’s the stock response here to “you’re saying a thing I disagree with.”

I sit somewhere between 2nd and 3rd, I’d imagine. Views change. But I’d find it genuinely difficult to label myself as GC in the current trans debate because there are whole parts of it that I personally don’t agree with.

Trust me, no one here is going to be astounded or particularly impressed that you have a gender studies degree @SleeplessInWherever

Come off it. It's not OP's business or job to try to change her partner's sibling's stance.
All that will happen is that relationships will be damaged.

OP this is an adult and they are free to act as they choose. You don't have to believe it or agree with it, any more than if they had converted to Buddhism. But there is nothing to be gained from "taking a stand" here, and much to be lost.

Wasn’t asking them to be. I just think the assumption that people who don’t agree with you haven’t read the occasional book, is fairly presumptuous.

A view that differs from yours isn’t necessarily less informed, and I think it’s a shame that people assume it is.

This is what I meant, FWIW. The GC community even excludes other women, who actually agree with them on some points, because they differ on one thing - you must be rude to them.

It’s a shame that there’s a wrong kind of feminism, to you.

I’ve never thought that you haven’t read any books @SleeplessInWherever- what’s your point, exactly? Your blind spot on this issue is clear.

There’s only one wrong kind of feminism to me, the one that doesn’t centre the needs and experiences of women and girls, female people. It’s fake feminism.

@SleeplessInWherever

"The way you have been affected by the societal construct of gender, is your gender identity."

That sounds like the exact opposite of how we trans people define gender identity.

@SleeplessInWherever This is what I meant, FWIW. The GC community even excludes other women, who actually agree with them on some points, because they differ on one thing - you must be rude to them.

It’s a shame that there’s a wrong kind of feminism, to you.

You are commiting the same insane fallacy that we see from TRAs all the time - you aren't being "excluded" or not counted within our feminism if we disagree with you. Even if someone is rude to you they aren't having any of your rights impinged upon. Disagreement and robust assertion of the reasons for that disagreement is not an attack on you.

It's weird to assume that there's a single set of beliefs within "the GC ommunity" (Whatever that is. There's not any kind of organisation or rules). Being critical of this concept - that there exists an intangible/spiritual "essence" of womanhood the absence of which can make a female person "not a woman" and the presence (impossible to prove or define so individual assertion from the subjective beliefs of the individual being the only way to identify such a "presence") of which can make a male person "actually a woman" - is not a thing that belongs particularly to right wing or left wing politics and there are all sorts of different and robust disagreements between women who hold GC views. We don't accuse people of "excluding us from their feminism" if they disagree with us. The people who are excluded from feminism (in the sense of their rights and fredoms not being centred) are male people, although even male people can still be feminists if they are in agreement that the rights of women and girls are just as important as the rights of male people, that positive action to counteract disadvantages to women and girls is appropriate, and that when the desires and wishes of male people would disadvantage women and girls, those males don't get to do that (imcluding that male people can't opt in to opportunities/facilities that have been established specifically to counteract an advantage that males have over females).

Women who want to centre the desires and wishes of men over the safety and wellbeing of women and girls will obviously encounter robust disagreement from feminists but that doesn't mean that their rights and freedoms aren't still included within the work of feminism. Or are you saying that we ought to redefine "feminism" so that wanting to prioritise male people over female people can be an accepted and equally valid viewpoint for a feminist to hold?

What is the 'GC community' supposed to be?

GC is a default position, in that it's based on long standing norms / well established scientific principles. Being 'GC' will naturally apply to people from a wide range of viewpoints. There is no 'club'.

Exactly that. I find it bizarre that so many posters on this branch take this so personally, and feel that they should insert themselves into that person's decision and 'put them right'.

The OP asked about advice how she should react and people answered. What is so surprising about that?

Converting to Buddhism would be a lot easier to address. She would be a Buddhist and whether or not I liked Buddhism would be immaterial. I have an aunt who converted to Hinduism as she married an Indian man and tbh I was never quite clear whether you can technically convert (not as clear as in Judaism/Islam/Christianity)but everyone in the family accepted that she was now Hindu and for all intents and purposes she went to temple and she was Hindu, whether she was technically Hindu wasn't really of substance.

Being trans is different it's saying you are a man now even though yesterday you were a full biological woman.

‘The GC community even excludes other women’

The only women whom we exclude from our feminism are fake women, i.e. men. Disagreeing with someone doesn’t denote exclusion, but that is the whole problem with this regressive ideology, it demands 💯 affirmation or you’re the devil. Look at what’s happened to Legaltweetz, they are trying to destroy her because she has dared to deviate from the sacred oath, they’re trying to destroy a bunny sanctuary because of who follows them on SM, these are not isolated incidents, it’s the norm with this ideology.

She's still a biological woman. She's just calling herself a man.
I'd indulge her but don't get too involved... She might change her mind again down the line.

Feminism includes all female people, even the ones who undermine the goals of feminism. It doesn't include any male people, even the really nice ones.

HTH.

Ah.

Is is possible, that having done a degree in gender woo studies, you are somewhat invested in it not being exposed to be complete and utter bollocks?

Because in ten years' time you don't want to have a CV that reads as if you did an entire degree in "why the earth is flat"?

Of course. Being transgender isn't a choice, but one's belief (I use the term loosely) in the reality of biological sex definitely is... 🙄🙄🙄

Ten years time?

My first reaction to reading that sleepless had done gender studies was 'god what a lot of time and money to waste'.

(I did a whole module in women's studies. Do I win a prize?)

But yeah there a) a certain type of person who is going to choose to do gender studies b) there is a self investment in maintaining the idea you didn't do a degree in utter gibberish that's noted worthy.

For all I know you are all truck drivers hanging out at a caff, but from what I understand a degree in gender studies is a degree in criticising gender.

I am baffled that somebody could complete a degree in the subject and believe that gender identity is a good way to categorise people or that societal expectations of gender can easily be separated from other societal and family influences. Happily, nobody in the U.K. is forced to define themselves by religion, even though that is central to many individual perceptions of identity.

Meanwhile boring, messy, sex specific things like miscarriage, cancer, pregnancy, breast feeding, menstruation and menopause carry on with no regard to identity, personality or choice of university course.

My bacon butty this morning is epic.

I think Gender Studies degrees may have changed out of all recognition

I don't see it as different. She identifies as male now and whether or not you agree with her she is an adult who has agency and the right to make her own mistakes. Maybe this is her for the rest of her life. Maybe she will regret it in 10 years. It doesn't matter.

What I might do is express some anxiety about the specifics of how she wishes to transition, in Germany etc, but you have zero rights to try to interfere in whether she wants to.

If you feel very strongly about it you can try to skip around gendered pronouns I suppose. But it's not for you to tell her she cannot or should not identify as male. It doesn't have to make sense to you. Any more than if she was converting to Buddhism you would tell her it's all bollocks.

The thing i find with this board is that within the ‘sex is immutable’ group of posters there is actually a fairly large range of views

people come on to the board and say GC posters all say A,B and C and that is just not the case at all

I like all the different posts, as long as people aren’t rude or honestly stupid (and you can’t deny there have been posters that are either very stupid or pretending to be) then I like all the different views even if I might not agree they are an opportunity to clarify my views

Like every other thread on Mumsnet, you mean?

The truth is, no-one lives in them fully. Not Rambo, not Ruby Gillis in the Anne of Green Gables books. Even the stereotypes are variable, and the ones some trans people seem to be basing their presentation on are their own understanding of how their "gender" looks. So why take any notice at all of gender?