It is job done, game over, finito clear as day.

[Bannedontherun]

Yet we are still her arguing the toss with a variety of nut wits.

Why are we doing it why are we giving it oxygen

Should we just break the habit of a lifetime and just ignore their incursions and derailments .

I resolve to only pay attention to current and future legal cases and positive developments, and ignore all the silly noise wherever it comes from.

It's clearly a hobby at this point.

I’m in Scotland, a lot of the silly noise comes from Holyrood. It’s a bit exasperating

You're right on an intellectual level. But it's hearts and minds. My (v intelligent and thoughtful) DD is still utterly trapped in the madness. Yes I have said 'I wont discuss this with you until you can discuss it sensibly and on a factual basis' but the fact is that we have to bring people like her round. So we just have to keep on. It's so depressing, and I'm convinced that most TRAs don't believe the evil women-hating shit they're spouting, bit we have to just keep explaining biology...

It's pure brainwashing. We need to google how to undo brainwashing...

I don't argue directly with the terminally stupid but I do sometimes respond to points raised for the benefit of any lurkers who may need more info.

I think we need to keep pushing back unfortunately we seem to have got to a point where legislators seem to be led by the ones making the most noise, if they are the only voices they must be right type stuff.

Bonkers but true. I think it’s how it all got so ridiculous in the first place. Surely no one would ever really believe that TWAW and that it was just being kind, cooler heads will prevail and that men wouldn’t be in female spaces as that will never happen.

There is still a need to exercise logic and refine one's reasoning skills. They come in very useful and are the sort of thing which wins court cases and public debates.

I read an interesting piece the other day, which I can't now locate. Dunno if I found it through MN, or possibly Unherd or somewhere like that. The writer was talking about the "why can't we convince them?" point. Over-simplifying massively, their argument was, that are two ways people arrive at a position: through logic and the 'scientific method' or by an emotional response. And that it is futile to hope to sway those who have come from an emotional direction by using the logical toolkit. It seemed quite a sage point at the time.

Jonathan Swift, although the phrasing has been polished since:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/07/10/reason-out/

Thank you. I found this helpful when I was lurking and I have started doing similar, I think it is particularly useful on threads that are trending.

OP I do agree with your overall sentiment.

I value the freedom we now have to argue our case, to speak clearly and repeatedly about the truth.

There was a while when we couldn’t so I’m happy to keep going for a while yet. It’s a right women had to fight for- again.

And that it is futile to hope to sway those who have come from an emotional direction by using the logical toolkit.

I can see the argument, but I'm not completely sure of it. Sometimes people who are brought up in a religious cult are persuaded out of it by reason. And I have seen lots of people who were previously of the "be kind" persuasion - out of a kind of fuzzily misguided belief that trans rights are the new gay rights - suddenly reach peak trans. Often it's a combination of emotion and reason - eg you see a pic of Isla Bryson in his tight-fitting leggings, and think Oh, that's why people think trans women don't belong in women's prisons.

I do agree that some people are beyond hope. I have a couple of friends who are out of the reach of reasoned argument.

I think the point about carrying on the debate for those looking in, who might be persuaded has convinced me to carry on .

I'm a long time lurker and seeing people here make and defend their views has been really helpful for me to make my own conclusions. I've been reading for years and I'm not confident enough to get very involved. Just wanted to thank everyone that comes here to discuss this stuff.

It's understandable that having the same conversations over the years leave you feeling worn out. Everyone should look after themselves of course. Choose your battles etc.

There's a lot for people to unpick. It's clear many haven't even thought about it and are still confused as to what the problem is.

A thread where there were an awful lot of arguing with opposing views has been deleted. It was getting a bit out if hand.

Unfortunately there is still a loud and powerful political and media lobby attempting to undermine the clarification of women's sex based rights, and a loud and powerful cultural movement attempting to delegitimise women's voices and experiences.

FWR needs to keep being a publicly available space where women can restate the reasons why women's voices matter and women's needs are important, hone the best ways to explain this, and share support and legal knowledge, so that when women need to make the case against these malign sexist demands they have the words and the confidence to do it clearly and powerfully.

Thank rhinos nice to see you here.

just watched the (women’s) and equalities committee, interesting on the dedicated thread people were quite cross.

I thought they were much more subdued than the Kemi debacle. I mention it here because it seems to me apart from a few die hards it is a debate that has lost any traction.

It’s delusional

There is still so much to be fixed on the ground though. As long as schools still have mixed sex toilets ( and HTs still think of the Safe Schools Alliance as an untrustworthy pressure group no different from Mermaids really) we can’t stop talking about this. Just one example of many.

Yes i agree with that I do not have young children, but i do have pre school grandchildren.

My daughter works for the NHS and was quite captured and argumentative with me.

She seems to have desisted somewhat, her response to the SC ruling to me was what about the transexuals.

I just said why is that a woman’s problem?

No reply of course.

I think for your average Joanna it will just sink in sooner rather than later and that they will realise they can be free from their permanent state of cognitive dissonance as soon as the NHS, and other public bodies are called in to book.

I disagree with you - there's so much still to do. My sector is completely captured and hasn't changed its mind since the For Women Scotland judgment. I certainly still can't speak out at work. My children (some in their 20s and apparently very intelligent - one is qualifying as a doctor this year! ) are still fervent believers.

@HelenHywater fucking NHS has a lot to answer for

The other thing to be aware of when considering lurkers is the difference in tone by the various perspectives.

It’s easy to notice sealioning (even if you don’t recognise the term), bad faith and pure unbridled aggression. Also the scolding. No one likes a scold.

If I were reading while knowing nothing, I’d know which side I wanted to be on.

I'm very much a case in point. I was extremely active on this board for a good decade or more.

I now lurk but seldom post. I'm burnt out, sad to say. Our successes fill me with joy and there are plenty of other posters to carry the truth. I can't believe I've become so worn out.