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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans Ex-Judge on BBC Newscast

223 replies

CaveMum · 07/06/2025 23:12

Can’t bear to listen to it mussels, but if anyone has a string stomach/wants to take one for the team, today’s Newscast is a 43 minute long interview by Laura Kuenssberg of Victoria McCloud who is planning a challenge to overturn the Supreme Court ruling that a woman is defined by biological sex under equalities law.

There aren’t enough 🙄 emoji’s in the world!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0lh0c9r?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Newscast - The Trans Ex Judge Challenging The Supreme Court Gender Ruling - BBC Sounds

Victoria McCloud is in the Newscast studio.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0lh0c9r?origin=share-mobile&partner=uk.co.bbc

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
MassiveWordSalad · 09/06/2025 10:04

I’m sorry to talk about toilets, but I’m struggling to get my head around this.

VM believes he is a woman, and probably thinks he passes as one. So let’s say he goes in the men’s and the other men in there think he’s a woman. Would he get killed for that? Is this a thing, that women going in the men’s bogs are at risk of death? If I were to mistake the signage and wander in accidentally, could I die?? Why aren’t women and girls given dire warnings from an early age?

Then let’s say he doesn’t pass (!) The other men in the men’s bogs think he’s a man dressed as a woman. Are all those other men raging transphobes ready to kill a TIM at a moment’s notice? My anecdotal experience from talking to men over the years is that there are certain unspoken rules in place, like no eye contact, don’t use the urinal next to another dude unless you have no other option and don’t hang about in there because people might think you’re weird. Maybe that’s wrong and there are gangs of men with crowbars just waiting to jump on anyone nonconforming 🤷🏽‍♀️

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/06/2025 10:20

EdithStourton · 09/06/2025 07:08

I'm not remotely up for compromise. After having NO DEBATE screamed at me for years, and seen young people - too yoing for their brains to be fully developed - medicated by this ideology, my considered view is that all we can do is deal with the fallout in the form of the physical and mental health issues that seem likely to plague younger people who went down this path, and otherwise not give a fucking inch.

Our sports. Our single sex spaces. Our legal protections. Our foremothers fought so hard for them, and we'd been lulled into a false sense of security, thinking they were safe. They're not.

Feminist progress has been largely stalled over the last decade by the struggle to fight off these fucking men. So I'm done with them.

Yes, exactly.

Greyskybluesky · 09/06/2025 10:25

Are all those other men raging transphobes ready to kill a TIM at a moment’s notice?

No I don't think so @MassiveWordSalad. I'm told it goes like this:

Feminine-presenting person enters men's toilets - men think 'uh is that a woman?' - person goes up to urinals and gets cock out to pee - other men think 'oh right, a bloke'
or
Feminine-presenting person enters men's toilets - men think 'uh is that a woman?' - person goes into cubicle - men forget all about it, carry on pissing and then leave

Rightsraptor · 09/06/2025 10:25

I'm sure if men, however they identify or dress, were attacked in the gents we'd hear about it. Personally, I can't be arsed to trawl through searches looking for evidence, but no such stories spring to mind.

illinivich · 09/06/2025 11:01

Trans identifying men imagine womens toilets are always full of women chatting and sharing tampax and make up tips. So a single man wouldnt be able to attack a woman or girl. The mens are full of men ready for the chance to attack women. I think these ideas of porn inspired.

Any debate with TRA around single sex spaces makes no sense because theyll use an imagined person to build a case - the passing trans person would be outed or just as vulnerable in the 'wrong' toilet. Then rather than say, 'that why we need to have specific policies in place', say 'thats why all trans people can self id into single sex spaces'. We have to treat all trans people as if they pass.

It's the same when they use DSD. Its possible that a trans person had a dsd, therefore all trans people need to be treated as if they have the opposite sex dsd.

The imagined passing stealth trans person suddenly disappears and an imagined out trans person is used when they want to show that there isnt enough trans representation in companies or the media. Then we need to acknowledge that these people are obviously trans and are not their target sex.

They are like toddlers who demand rules are changed so they get their own way at all times.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/06/2025 11:29

I think we need to stop nodding and going along with the idea that trying to mislead the world around you about your sex is in any way a good or sensible thing to do.

life will be unbearably complicated if you try to live a lie. Rather than trying to make the world go along with your lie, the easiest and healthiest solution seems to me to be to be honest

KnottyAuty · 09/06/2025 11:38

Managed to listen this morning.

How did this person become a judge? Or are they simply dishonest? Or do synthetic hormones impact on brain function? Sounds very reasonable but the arguments made are contradictory or illogical.

Quibbling about the meaning or definition of biological sex on the one hand - but at the start of the talk saying it was very simple - based on "f" or "m" on your birth certificate.

Claiming that under the EA they are a "man" when considering equal pay with men. Incorrect! They either have protection under the EA via direct discrimination under Gender Reassignment or indirect discrimination if treated as if they were a Woman.

Repeating the GRA "acquired gender for all purposes" 9(1) wording while omitting the list of original exceptions (I think the list included sports alongside peerages/property but noone mentions that) and 9(3) which says unless "any piece of legislation, including secondary legislation, may introduce further exemptions to the scope of a GRC"

Stating at different times that they are trans, transsexual, transgender and that they were "I was aware that I had the medical condition of gender dysphoria from my earliest memories". So they know that they were born male even though they felt they were female. They know that this is a medical condition for which they presumably had to have diagnostic paperwork to get a GRC. They were themselves once a chartered psychologist. As a PP said, the process of getting this diagnosis and certification should have included therapy making it clear that a change of "sex" would not be happening or possible. How can they possibly say that they don't know which box to tick on a form asking for sex?

They state that they have two sexes under the law depending on whether it is the GRA or the EA. But a GRC changes gender and not sex - the clue is in the name Gender Recognition Certificate. The EA is also now clarified - they are male under sex and a woman under gender reassignment.

They claim that human rights are absolute and that the majority can't use their numbers to overrule a minority's needs. ETA but ignore women's human rights - while assuming their right is to use women's facilities as opposed to having a third space available.

Claiming that trans people weren't included anywhere in the legal process and rejected as intervenors to the SC - when literally the case was because the Scottish Government had said unlawfully that TW were women. So their rights were at the absolute heart of the case with a whole government on their side?

If this is the sum of the legal argument then this appeal is pointless - and is certain to be an own-goal. Why get the European Court to confirm all this publicly? I can't understand what the TRAs possibly gain by pursuing this legal case... unless it is an ignorance of the facts about what has been happening to women?

It has occured to me, that the BBC and Guardian omissions in coverage has possibly done a disservice to the transsexuals like VM. They claim not to have heard about the bad things which have happened to women. They say have seen "things on the internet" like nazi salutes at a GC meeting in Australia etc Of course the woeful coverage on the BBC means that the Moira Deeming case hasn't been well publicised which de-bunks that whole saga...

I was completely in the dark just "getting on with life" until the Peggie case in February. Is it possible that people like VM have been taken by surprise by the SC ruling because they just didn't see it coming? Could that really be possible? I'd rather think that than the money making or publicity stunt possibilities...

SionnachRuadh · 09/06/2025 12:04

Listening to VM at length just brings to mind Kath Stock's idea of the immersive fiction. I actually think VM is so deep into his fiction that he can't do the thing most of us do, take some emotional distance and look at things dispassionately. Which lawyers kind of have to be able to do.

Very much agree with Bernard that this is not good or healthy for the individual or society. Especially because we're being expected to deny the evidence of our senses.

On one level this gives me no pleasure, because I knew transsexual people before it was fashionable. But if I'm brutally honest, I have known precisely one transwoman who passed well (not perfectly), and that's someone who grew up with a feminising DSD and looked very feminine as a boy. That gives you some idea of the rarity. And this was someone who you'd clock as trans on close examination, but on a fleeting acquaintance you'd probably think "tallish woman with a husky voice". And someone who would quite honestly say "yes, I was born a boy, grew up a feminine boy, because of XYZ factors in my childhood I dissociated from my male body and am only comfortable presenting as female".

I've known other transpeople who, without exception, their natal sex was very obvious at a glance. But I didn't much mind because I liked them as individuals.

But I think my former "be kind" instincts were based on the idea that TWAW is a polite fiction, nobody actually believes that, we're just trying not to hurt our friends' feelings.

And then it turned out that many people either do believe it, or more likely want to force us to act as if we believe it, and then the bad actors and the extremists became impossible to ignore...

So someone like me who started out sympathetic is now wondering whether it's really kind to indulge the fiction at all. And that's on people like VM, because there are probably a bunch of us who would have remained allies if they showed any signs of connection to reality.

KnottyAuty · 09/06/2025 12:10

Quite - my overriding impression is "fact free zone". Society never indulged David Ike when he claimed to be "the son of god" so how indeed is this different?

SionnachRuadh · 09/06/2025 12:13

I can't help thinking of that Icke interview on Terry Wogan, except what would have happened if, instead of laughing, the audience were all intimidated into applauding.

SionnachRuadh · 09/06/2025 12:24

I mean we all indulge in polite fictions from time to time, or society couldn't function. We all know that when your friend says "does my bum look big in this?" you absolutely don't say that it looks enormous, even though it does.

But I don't think you can build law on requiring people to observe polite fictions, because sometimes fact is relevant and you need to be able to say so.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/06/2025 12:25

KnottyAuty · 09/06/2025 12:10

Quite - my overriding impression is "fact free zone". Society never indulged David Ike when he claimed to be "the son of god" so how indeed is this different?

Astoundingly good strategy and marketing

conflating role playing as a member of the opposite sex with being gay or with being brown or black (see the brown and black stripes on the pride progress flag).

if it hadn’t undermined women’s rights and somehow justified sterilisation for confused teenagers I would be all admiration. I mean the shifting of the overton window to ‘you have to applaud people pretending to be members of the opposite sex’ is really quite an achievement

viques · 09/06/2025 12:34

Kirova · 08/06/2025 22:49

I think intersex is the 'I' in LGBTQIAP2S+. So maybe!

I do wish they would add in a U ( undecided, unclear, unicorn,) it would be so much easier to make anagrams. An E would help too, but my mind is a blank.

Szygy · 09/06/2025 12:41

FriedGold32 · 08/06/2025 16:03

Him saying that his hormone pills stop him getting pregnant is so funny. Why are radio producers inviting people on who are clearly quite mentally unwell?

Next week: a plumber from Basingstoke says he's Napoleon - are the French government violating his human rights by not handing him power?

Whoa, whoa - hold on….WHAT?? Pregnant?!

FriedGold32 · 09/06/2025 12:44

Szygy · 09/06/2025 12:41

Whoa, whoa - hold on….WHAT?? Pregnant?!

https://x.com/LegalGengar/status/1931724550825218133?s=19

https://x.com/LegalGengar/status/1931724550825218133?s=19

Szygy · 09/06/2025 12:48

Dear God 🤦‍♀️

However, I hadn’t heard his voice before, which is entirely as expected.

BetsyM00 · 09/06/2025 12:49

They state that they have two sexes under the law depending on whether it is the GRA or the EA. But a GRC changes gender and not sex - the clue is in the name Gender Recognition Certificate. The EA is also now clarified - they are male under sex and a woman under gender reassignment.

No, this is not correct. Sex is biological throughout the Equality Act so VM is male.

Like most protected characteristics: disability, religion, etc. Gender Reassignment does not differentiate between the sexes. It covers all transsexual persons going through a transition process.

SionnachRuadh · 09/06/2025 12:59

Szygy · 09/06/2025 12:41

Whoa, whoa - hold on….WHAT?? Pregnant?!

Also, VM is 55 years old.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/06/2025 13:00

Not only is he male, he must be pushing 60. There is zero pregnancy risk at any time.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/06/2025 13:00

X post 😂

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/06/2025 13:04

The idea that anyone is taking this fella seriously is a bit boggling

I’m all for the beeb letting him speak, they just need to give a similar platform to Helen Joyce or similar

Merrymouse · 09/06/2025 13:05

What the GRA can do - create a process that enables some people to hide their sex in some situations where this would otherwise not be possible.

What the GRA can’t do - actually change somebody’s sex.

Merrymouse · 09/06/2025 13:06

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/06/2025 13:04

The idea that anyone is taking this fella seriously is a bit boggling

I’m all for the beeb letting him speak, they just need to give a similar platform to Helen Joyce or similar

Aren’t they obliged to do this, to show impartiality?

Merrymouse · 09/06/2025 13:06

And also to avoid spreading misinformation?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/06/2025 13:09

Well yes, my only concern is the Beeb apparently endorsing bollocks. But anyone listening to a 55 year old man saying that the pill stops him from getting pregnant and not thinking ‘hang on a minute…’ may be beyond help

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