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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good Law Practice launch a EHCR/Supreme Court challenge over toilets

770 replies

fromorbit · 07/06/2025 07:38

After raising over 418K it turns out the GLP's amazing legal case is all about toilets. Details:

https://archive.is/TWRTl

No doubt it will fail like most of their previous legal cases.

Previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5336208-good-law-project-suing-the-ehrc-and-bridget-phillipson-letter-before-action?page=1

Good Law Project suing the EHRC and Bridget Phillipson - letter before action | Mumsnet

Sorry if this has already been shared - here are the links to their letter and statement. Looking forward to the Mumsnet analysis :-) [[https://good...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5336208-good-law-project-suing-the-ehrc-and-bridget-phillipson-letter-before-action?page=1

OP posts:
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50
Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:32

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/07/2025 13:24

With respect, you don’t know what they say when you’re not around. Go and hang out on most trans spaces online, they’re not very friendly to non compliant women.

True.

My view will be biased by those I am most in contact with - who are a vulnerable group of people, most don’t have trans identities but a significant number do.

Their distress sometimes manifests as outward aggression and sometimes self harm. Either way, their struggle significantly impacts on their quality of life.

My job is to help them understand the thoughts and feelings that fuel their distress.

Keeptoiletssafe · 05/07/2025 13:39

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:24

None and none - within the contexts in which I work

Please can you tell me what are the contexts? Not trying to be goady, but interested if it falls inline with what I already have got in terms of research. What sexes use which toilet designs?

illinivich · 05/07/2025 13:42

I understand that trans is a large umbrella.

But trans itself is based on trying to refined or ignore sex. Everyone caught up in this fundamentally wants this, regardless of their motivation.

They want to redefine woman as whatever a man can achieve, a man whatever a woman can achieve, and some want to remove man/woman/girl/boy distinctions completely. In otherwords make man and woman into self defined identities, and sex irrelevant.

If there was a significant number of TRA who did recognise sex and not 'queer' it, the GRA wouldnt be in its current form. Also, knowing that so many under the trans umbrella do want to make sex irrelevant, why would they identify as trans and not just a man?

SionnachRuadh · 05/07/2025 13:43

teawamutu · 05/07/2025 13:28

This may be true, and I am a bit sorry for the ones who just want to live and keep their heads down.

However:

  1. Very, very few of those have spoken out and said 'not in my name'. They've just reaped the benefits of the climate of fear created by the aggressive wankers.
  2. There's no way of keeping the aggressive vicious misogynists out and letting the nice ones in, even if we wanted to. So it has to be a hard 'no' to all men in women's spaces, however sad it makes them.

Very much agree. I think quite a few of us have people like that in our lives, and I do feel a bit sorry that extremist transactivism shit the bed for them.

But they had plenty of opportunities to say "not in my name" or "this behaviour is totally unacceptable" or "this is not what our community is", and with very few exceptions they didn't.

Now whether that's a tribal feeling that they needed to stick with their own people, or whether it's a fear of being cast out of their community if they broke ranks, or a disregard for women's needs and concerns, or any number of reasons... that doesn't really matter.

Whatever they thought privately about transactivism, they were happy to go along with it if it was going to deliver them benefits, and they didn't stop to think if it was overreaching or it was undermining the social acceptance they relied on.

They didn't have to be geniuses to see it coming. Debbie Hayton saw it coming.

TheOtherRaven · 05/07/2025 13:45

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:32

True.

My view will be biased by those I am most in contact with - who are a vulnerable group of people, most don’t have trans identities but a significant number do.

Their distress sometimes manifests as outward aggression and sometimes self harm. Either way, their struggle significantly impacts on their quality of life.

My job is to help them understand the thoughts and feelings that fuel their distress.

And that's lovely, within your job.

Within which you have (hopefully) support and training regarding enmeshment, enabling and appropriate boundaries, unwittingly using your clients to meet your own needs which is a risk in any therapeutic relationship rather than doing what your client needs, (not wants, but needs), and during which you as a person and an equal are not relevant: you're in a caring, providing , paid role.

Women should not be providing unpaid, unqualified, unsupervised caring professional services to random men from any groups, particularly with regard to people with psychological needs where enablement can be very much not in anyone's best interests. Women drawn to doing this often have serious issues of their own.

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:46

Keeptoiletssafe · 05/07/2025 13:39

Please can you tell me what are the contexts? Not trying to be goady, but interested if it falls inline with what I already have got in terms of research. What sexes use which toilet designs?

I am a psychologist and work in different contexts.

I have a specialist role, which indirectly involves lots of gender related issues - my Zoe is must area isn’t gender identity.

In all of my places of work there are 3 types of toilets.

My work involves me exploring thoughts, feelings and behaviours of clients/ patients - most of whom are between 16 and 25.

I don’t use preferred pronouns. This is part of the work I do with them. I don’t use any pronouns.

illinivich · 05/07/2025 13:47

Does anyone remember the Angels website? Their users came on here, claiming to be the reasonable ones, meanwhile posted there about their hatred for women.

JellySaurus · 05/07/2025 13:48

I posted the argument that it is possible to accept that transwomen feel dehumanised when excluded from the category ‘woman’ and that women feel dehumanised when they are included. I said get why both sets of feeling arise.

Fair enough, but it's not women's job to make trans-IDed men feel better. So that's where it ends. Their problem, not ours.

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:51

TheOtherRaven · 05/07/2025 13:45

And that's lovely, within your job.

Within which you have (hopefully) support and training regarding enmeshment, enabling and appropriate boundaries, unwittingly using your clients to meet your own needs which is a risk in any therapeutic relationship rather than doing what your client needs, (not wants, but needs), and during which you as a person and an equal are not relevant: you're in a caring, providing , paid role.

Women should not be providing unpaid, unqualified, unsupervised caring professional services to random men from any groups, particularly with regard to people with psychological needs where enablement can be very much not in anyone's best interests. Women drawn to doing this often have serious issues of their own.

I agree with you, and most of the responses to my posts.

I am struggling to understand the either/or positioning that is presented in them.

I don’t think understanding how and why someone is distressed means you need to take any action, including showing care or empathy.

RedToothBrush · 05/07/2025 13:53

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:24

None and none - within the contexts in which I work

So we are having a conversation about how women don't want to pander to the identities of males who say they are female by putting up with them in female spaces, using female pronouns and saying they are absoluetely women and this is objectionable, so you reply that your experience is with males who don't use female spaces, female pronouns and demand we call them women.

Talk about missing the point.

illinivich · 05/07/2025 13:54

Also, women have being trying to speak for 10 or more years about how men identifying as women make us feel. And the number of men and boys who're trans is increasing.

Why do we have to consider the feelings of a man, when he has been ignoring us all of his life?

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:57

JellySaurus · 05/07/2025 13:48

I posted the argument that it is possible to accept that transwomen feel dehumanised when excluded from the category ‘woman’ and that women feel dehumanised when they are included. I said get why both sets of feeling arise.

Fair enough, but it's not women's job to make trans-IDed men feel better. So that's where it ends. Their problem, not ours.

I agree.

There appears to be something I’ve posted, or the manner in which I’ve posted, that gives the impression that my positioning requires women to act or behave in certain ways. I don’t think this.

My posts are about how frustrated I get by what I believe to be a refusal to understand why women are distressed by the inclusion of males in female only provision because I can understand the distress transwomen experienced by their exclusion.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 05/07/2025 13:57

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 12:37

People don’t live forever but that doesn’t stop us grieving when someone dies.

Lots of people with trans identities know their sex, they aren’t delusional, they are dysphoric and experience gender related distress.

I don’t think it is in anyway contradictory to understand how and why people with trans identities find exclusion from single sex provision, or sexed based pronouns, distressing and to also argue for single sex provision and for using sex based pronouns.

Similarly, I don’t think it would be contrary if JM advocated for trans inclusion in single sex spaces whilst being sympathetic to the arguments women make in opposition to this.

Whilst the issues are pretty binary - e.g trans inclusion v single sex - there is room to have empathy across both sides.

I understand what you are saying but I think you missed the point.

It's not about "status". It's about deciding that something in the way a man thinks means it's reasonable to consider him a "woman". Even if that's only in limited circumstances, it's still fundamentally redefining what it means to be a woman or a man.

We've never seen mental difference to men, such as they are, to be the defining feature of womanhood, more a secondary effect that can be observed but is not universal and therefore not a necesary quality of womanhood.

Allowing the belief that mental difference to men is a fundamental quality of womanhood, overriding even the significance of sex, is IMO a huge mistake and not a path it is ever reasonable to go down no matter how kind and worthy the reason.

IF society decides some men have a legitmate reason to need similar protections to women, and IF society decides the best way to do that is that those men should share a provision with women, then the right and fair way to do that is to rename and rethink that specific provision based on whatever that mixed sex shared need being addressed is.

It is not to say "these men need help here, let's just call them women and then we don't have to think about it any further".

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 14:02

RedToothBrush · 05/07/2025 13:53

So we are having a conversation about how women don't want to pander to the identities of males who say they are female by putting up with them in female spaces, using female pronouns and saying they are absoluetely women and this is objectionable, so you reply that your experience is with males who don't use female spaces, female pronouns and demand we call them women.

Talk about missing the point.

OK, I’ll bow out here. I thought, I still think, my contributions are related but that seems to reflect a misunderstanding on my side.

It may be that I’m missing something, or I’m failing to communicate my point adequately.

I’ll reflect on it some more.

Dwimmer · 05/07/2025 14:13

I am a bit sorry for the ones who just want to live and keep their heads down.

Don’t feel sorry for them. They were the ones behind the Denton Handbook, who set up the GRA, NHS Appendix B, and who were behind the various workplace training schemes - they are the ones responsible for the destruction of women’s rights.

MarieDeGournay · 05/07/2025 14:17

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 14:02

OK, I’ll bow out here. I thought, I still think, my contributions are related but that seems to reflect a misunderstanding on my side.

It may be that I’m missing something, or I’m failing to communicate my point adequately.

I’ll reflect on it some more.

I'm not taking part in this discussion, but I'd like to acknowledge this post of yours, Brainworm - not everyone disagrees/reflects/removes themselves from the discussion with such good grace.

There's not a lot of good grace in online discussions, so I like to mark it when it happens here.
Call me soppy, I don't mindSmile

Dwimmer · 05/07/2025 14:22

I don’t think it would be contrary if JM advocated for trans inclusion in single sex spaces whilst being sympathetic to the arguments women make in opposition to this.

JM doesn’t advocate for trans inclusion in single sex spaces - that would be advocating for trans-identified men to use men’s toilets and changing rooms which is the antithesis of what he wants. He advocates for the destruction of female spaces which is why women object.

JellySaurus · 05/07/2025 14:38

My posts are about how frustrated I get by what I believe to be a refusal to understand why women are distressed by the inclusion of males in female only provision because I can understand the distress transwomen experienced by their exclusion.

To me that would suggest that you have empathy, an attribute totally lacking in the T-advocates.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 05/07/2025 14:43

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:46

I am a psychologist and work in different contexts.

I have a specialist role, which indirectly involves lots of gender related issues - my Zoe is must area isn’t gender identity.

In all of my places of work there are 3 types of toilets.

My work involves me exploring thoughts, feelings and behaviours of clients/ patients - most of whom are between 16 and 25.

I don’t use preferred pronouns. This is part of the work I do with them. I don’t use any pronouns.

So the transsexuals that you see are not the middle-aged male AGPs that cause so much of the distress.
What is the sex mix of your patients?

akkakk · 05/07/2025 14:44

It is possible to believe that sex is immutable and significant and that transwomen should not, in any circumstance, be included in the category ‘women’ and at the same time, be empathic to the feelings that this generates for transwomen.

yes empathic for the delusion they have been led to believe…

yes empathic for their mental illness and distress

yes empathic for the mess their thinking is in

but then ‘man up’ in the nicest sense and get on with life… our society seems to have ended in a place where we all have to stop and support and confirm and enable anything someone claims affects them…

we need to build a more resilient society and teach youngsters tools to deal with this distress… rather then collapsing at the first question they have and not knowing how to cope

ultimately this is a luxury indulgence society can’t afford…

we need to roll back to the basics:

  • sex is immutable so you can’t transition
  • gender is fluid and society’s interpretation, so you can’t change the scope of your gender, you can’t transition it.
so, whatever might be argued, being trans isn’t possible - it is only ever:
  • a mental illness (eg body dysmorphia)
  • deliberate which has many causes - and they are not good avenues to explore…

until we start from that point, any compassion that is added will simply give the impression of confirming and agreeing - but a hard reset would allow compassion for those who need it

Dwimmer · 05/07/2025 14:46

PrettyDamnCosmic · 05/07/2025 14:43

So the transsexuals that you see are not the middle-aged male AGPs that cause so much of the distress.
What is the sex mix of your patients?

And how many have comorbid conditions like autism? Or are same sex attracted? Or suffered child abuse?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 05/07/2025 14:47

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 14:02

OK, I’ll bow out here. I thought, I still think, my contributions are related but that seems to reflect a misunderstanding on my side.

It may be that I’m missing something, or I’m failing to communicate my point adequately.

I’ll reflect on it some more.

I think that you are missing the point that the teens & young adults that you see are not the middle aged male AGPs that everyone else is discussing.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 05/07/2025 14:51

Dwimmer · 05/07/2025 14:46

And how many have comorbid conditions like autism? Or are same sex attracted? Or suffered child abuse?

That was rather my point. The problem for women is male AGPs invading female spaces not autistic same sex attracted girls who have suffered sexual abuse with whom one can easily empathise.

TheOtherRaven · 05/07/2025 16:58

Brainworm · 05/07/2025 13:51

I agree with you, and most of the responses to my posts.

I am struggling to understand the either/or positioning that is presented in them.

I don’t think understanding how and why someone is distressed means you need to take any action, including showing care or empathy.

I'd start by asking is this a reciprocal social contract? With equal expectations?

Because I think you're positing some people as carers and some as rather infantilised and helpless recipients of care.

Is it going to be men without trans identities doing this caring work?

Is this contract and set of expectations equal, and how healthy is it if not?

Isn't this #bekind? How sensitized have women become to this phrase and what's the reasons and experiences that sensitized them? Was that phrase used in a manipulative way to gain reluctant consent and labour? To lower boundaries and permit what they otherwise wouldn't have done?

I don't think many here are talking about teenaged vulnerable girls with Autism, we're talking about the kind of men you can find on many threads here. Two in the past 24 hours for example, one of whom discussed their imagined response of flashing, a sexual assault, on non consenting women in toilets to punish them for non compliance, and the other of whom is hinting heavily about how women wanting privacy, dignity, rights, tolerance, are being discussed on a voice chat with their messages in a rather sinister way, with absolute derision. Women have been raped, assaulted, beaten up, excluded, in the name of well intentioned but compulsory indulgence of these men - and those women were sent to indulge and get the consequences , those setting the policies weren't taking those risks or having those experiences themselves.

The last elephant in the room in all this is that for many adult men transitioners, this is largely a sexual experience, and the use of women as resources and props within that experience is crucial. Hence the absolute rage when those props won't co operate, and the desire to gain the non consenting ones. As a psychologist you'll be well aware of the criminal psychology basics of how the distress or anger or emotions and reactions of a victim increase excitement, it's 101 armchair stuff these days. Two minutes on Terfisaslur.com shows the degree of pathology and disturbance involved for not some, not a few, many.

How healthy is it, honestly, to say to a woman when confronted with a man who has already declared what he thinks of her, her boundaries, her equality and her purpose in this experience of his by walking into a single sex space, that her first thought should be sympathy and understanding for him? Why is he entitled to that energy and head space from her? Why should she lower her guard and instincts, and extend this trust and caring role?

It's lovely for him, yes. What does it give her? Other than how lovely it is to be nice? At least until he hurts you.

TheOtherRaven · 05/07/2025 17:05

That a man is deeply distressed by a woman - say Sandie Peggie to take a current case fully evidenced - being upset and unwilling to take her period-flooded clothes off in front of him, because he at least says the distress is the rejection and denial of the womanhood he desires so much?

is not the woman's problem.

The man is going to have to learn with a good therapist how to deal with that distress a great deal more appropriately and to cope with other people's boundaries.

Compare the equality and reasonability of the two positions here.

  1. I demand that you learn to cope with and get on with taking your clothes off for me to gratify my distress/pysche and any other parts of me that would benefit. I need you to provide your body and not be able to refuse consent. (Police involvement has happened when women have refused.)
  2. There are two other facilities for this available to you, I need this one to be able to have access. Please just tolerate that you cannot control this one, which effectively means you control and choose from all the resources leaving me with nothing, and stay with the people who consent.