Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

Yabu op. Lots of women choose to wear a burkha as a religious and cultural expression of their identity. Whether or not YOU think it's oppressive doesn't actually matter - what they think is what matters. If someone told you that you now need to go topless everywhere you go because they think that would be liberating for women and men can go topless would you be cool with that? This is the same as that. Blanket bans on womens clothing are never a great look.

Why don't men choose to wear the burkha as a religious and cultural expression of their identity?

Do Muslim countries let non-Muslim women wear clothes that express their cultural identity? Would I be OK in downtown Mecca with flesh coloured leggings and a crop top?

Well no, largely because non-Muslims (I’m making an assumption) aren’t allowed to enter Mecca. Which is probably also relevant.

Lots of women choose to wear a burkha as a religious and cultural expression of their identity. Whether or not YOU think it's oppressive doesn't actually matter - what they think is what matters.

To a certain degree though.

Ricky's right

Do the oppressed know they're oppressed?

Another eternal question

By whose standards ?

I agree on banning it for safety reasons. I grew up in a very heavily Muslim area, every time I visit family it’s like driving in a crazy demolition derby at times as these women drive with zero peripheral vision. I’ve lost track of the amount of times I’ve had near misses. I actively drive around the long way a lot of the time.

I do not have a problem with women walking down the street wearing them, shopping, school runs, to me it’s perfectly normal as I grew up seeing this day in and day out. However, if schools and individual stores/businesses put policies in place I don’t think I’d object as long as their reasoning is clear and valid.

I get what your saying. If people are being forced to wear anything at all times it's out of order.

Women who wear the Niqab or hijab do sometimes not wear it. Usually when in company of other women and children.

I just think that you shouldn't 'ban' any specific clothing item. And if you're banning women from practicing their religion by wearing it then it could be seen as racist and sexist?

I just think that you shouldn't 'ban' any specific clothing item.

When is a waistcoat a gilet ?

And if you're banning women from practicing their religion by wearing it then it could be seen as racist and sexist?

As previously agreed, covering your face isn't mandated in Islam.

It’s still a religious practise whether mandated or not.

Being told to go topless is not comparable to showing your face! It is completely normal to show your face -in fact it is necessary for communication. Also the point about driving with no peripheral vision is valid. You should not wear a face covering whilst driving! Covering hair is one thing but the face is different. This is a clear example of oppression of women, imho as men are not asked to do it!

And if you're banning women from practicing their religion by wearing it then it could be seen as racist and sexist?
The niqab is not a religious requirement.
https://www.dar-alifta.org/en/fatwa/details/6126/can-i-take-off-my-niqab-for-security-checks-and-other-needed-situations#:~:text=Niqab%20is%20not%20obligatory%20according,has%20left%20open%20for%20her.

The obligatory hijab for the adult Muslim woman is that which covers her entire body except for her face and feet, though Hanafi scholars permit uncovering the feet. If these conditions are fulfilled, it is permissible for a woman to wear whatever she wishes and, in this case, Islam does not impose certain attire. Niqab is not obligatory according to the majority of scholars but Islam commands us to follow customs in lawful matters.

Removing niqab [face cover] is not a sin. A woman will be blameworthy when she is over strict in a matter which Allah has left open for her. Niqab is not obligatory nor is it recommended according to the opinion of some scholars. There is no objection to a woman removing it and she will not be blameworthy.

So any and all matters of religious practice have to be accommodated then ?

As I said, that leads to very dark places.

And if you are going to respond "don't be silly" then I will remind you we are just arguing over the price. We've already agreed on the sale.

I think it should be against the law to force women to wear a burka but it shouldn’t be banned. It’s ironic that the people who go on so much about the right to speech want to dictate to women what they can and can’t wear. Some women do wear it through choice.

When you take the time and trouble to study religion, it's quite fascinating to learn it all - including the sensible bits.

Doesn't matter how strict a Jew you are - you can still break the Sabbath to save a life (pikuach nefesh).

You seem to have switched. I don’t want to accommodate all. It’s not good for women and girls. Or dc generally.

It's naive in the extreme to say we don't dictate what people wear in a democracy. Of course we can and do within reason and within specific contexts. People have to cover their genitals in public. We have work and school uniforms, dress codes, the Highway Code and businesses specify how people can enter their premises (no helmet, shirt, long sleeves, closed toes, no jeans, no football shirts). I don't think it's at all unreasonable to specify that in publicly owned and commercial spaces and for safety reasons (eg operating machinery) fully covering your face should be restricted by law. That's not telling women what to wear. It's telling everyone what they can't wear.

Switched ?🤔

Personally, I can't claim to have any faith. Call me a limp atheist. However people are free to believe whatever they want to believe. no matter how hatstand - live and let live and all that hippy nonsense.

However my stare hardens when I start hearing what I "must" do in order that somebodies fairy story comes true. It becomes positively glacial when it's suggested that some people should be treated differently to others because of fantastic tales. It rather offends my naive idea that everyone is equal and should be treated as such.

Also, because I have a brain, I am not an anarchist.

The logical synthesis of those beliefs is what I generally try to articulate. Admittedly I was never very good in English at school, so often fail to get my point across, for which I apologise.

I think I have rather forgotten what the point was .... 😁

What In want to know is, why do people only ever talk about burqas like what women in Afghanistan wear? I have never seen anyone wearing a burqa in the U.K. I’ve seen one niqab in all my years of living in a town with a sizeable Muslim population, which as I’ve mentioned before I’m not a massive fan of but isn’t enough of a thing for me to think it needs banning. Most Muslim women here wear fairly modest, normal clothes and a hijab (covering hair only).

What is this burqa obsession based on? Is it just the easiest to spell?

What is this burqa obsession based on?

99% ignorance. On both sides, I'd wager ....

I've seen plenty of both in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham and London. Often accompanied by male family members in shorts and tshirts.

I don’t think it’s unusual for females to be more religious than males. Certainly for Catholics I’d say it was the norm.

North London here. Burkas are unusual, but not unknown. Niqabs more common. Hijabs are much much more common lately - especially in primary schools which breaks my heart.

I do not go along with the idea that we must accept a degree of harm to women because otherwise women will suffer more harm. Burkas harm women; they seek to removed them from the public sphere even as those women move through that spaces. They must be banned. If that results in other women being stuck in the home then we need to look to protect them and persecute any who abuse them.