Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

It’s a shame people see it through left right rather than women’s equality. You don’t actually get to determine my position as such. Another problematic part of this debate.

I find it concerning people don’t value what women and girls have here and are ready to accept this quite extreme religious practise so readily.

Well he is a Muslim before he is a 'populist'.

Yes it should be banned. We have no idea who is under there. I wouldn't want people walking around in balaclavas.

I absolutely value what women have here. But I also value the freedom of individual women to choose what they want for themselves - I don't think it is right to impose my preferences on others.

It's the same with the whole SAHM/WOHM debate. I wouldn't ever want to give up my career and my financial freedom to be a SAHP, but I recognise that other women make different choices and I don't think the state should legislate to ban women from staying at home with their kids simply because that's not what I would want for myself.

As to seeing it through the lens of left/right, I will concede that I made the observation about you being further to the right ln the basis of what I've seen on other threads rather than this one alone. Perhaps you're right that this in itself isn't a left/right issue. However, there has been so much anti-islamic sentiment from those on the right in recent years that it's very hard to separate the issue of women's rights in islam from the wider political discourse. Some on the right have unfortunately identified Islamophobia as a convenient vehicle for expressing their racist sentiments dressed up as concern for women's rights. To be clear, I'm not saying that this is what you are doing here, merely that this has been a major factor in the discourse in recent years.

The thread is not about the hijab.

I absolutely value what women have here. But I also value the freedom of individual women to choose what they want for themselves

I am shocked that on a feminism board posters do not understand the context within which a woman’s ‘freedom to choose’ exists.

I really hate niqabs and burkas that cover the whole face. However, that doesn't mean they should be banned. I also hate very high heels and feel that they harm women, but it's not for me or anyone else to ban them. We use persuasion instead.

I actually live in a country where niqabs are banned, but I still see them occasionally. It was particularly silly during Covids when we were all covering our faces anyway.

I think my previous posts on this thread have made it clear that I understand the context. I just think it is more nuanced than some people choose to believe.

I haven't seen anytime anyone dismiss that context or seem not to understand it, I have seen lots of reasonable debate about the best ways to exist within that context and the best way to address it without making things harder for women.

You can’t even make that assumption based on other threads. You’re likely incorrect. A lot of what I post is happening anyway. The ECHR is now looking at changes for example due to acceptance of issues. As I have said for a few years.

This isn’t a left right issue, or shouldn’t be. As for freedom to do this I prefer we value freedom from quite extreme religious practises and that we recognise and value equality.

We should understand these are hard won for women, plus important and use laws to stop them being eroded.

Well firstly you tried to make that sound like uncovering genitals. This is not the result of a cultural prohibition stretching back 1000s of years. In some cases it was imposed in just the last few generations or decades and imposed is typically the word.

It's a badge of submission and a sign that the wearer is not a person but a possession to be kept private.

The fact that some women have accepted the role of property is sad, but irrelevant.

We wouldn't allow someone to bring slaves here from a country which legalised it even if the slave said they were ok with it. We don't allow drug use regardless of their laws. Mob justice is banned here, but accepted elsewhere.

Equally my right to public nudity in the streets of Islamic countries is limited and gay friends can't kiss or hold hands. Yes that is homophobic, but it's their country and their right to make the rules. If we break their laws we are not just treated as criminals, we are criminals.

Covering faces has an additional implication since it has been so useful to criminals and because it hampers communication. That is part of the purpose in some cases, but it interferes with our culture and our needs. In schools it makes it harder for children.

So making not wearing it a condition of living here is perfectly reasonable and if we make that plain up front would be something people could take into account when thinking of moving here.

I would also question who does a ban on the burqa actually affect? Who polices that? What is the consequence to a woman who wears one in the context of a ban?

What is the context for a woman who actually is being forced to wear one in public? Is she prosecuted for being a victim of control? How many women in that scenario would be banned by the men in their life from leaving the house again? Do those women just vanish altogether from our society? Ironically what some are arguing the burqa itself does. What would the risk of harm be to them, from their controllers, if they have to go out without one? How do they receive education or adequate healthcare or have a support network?

To me, banning the burqa would make women who are already vulnerable and marginalised even more at risk.

Oh like the "hardly any men cheat at sports" argument.

We still doing that are we?

OK, so you don't want to be described as right wing? That surprises me given the many posts that I've seen from you, but I will respect your preference.

I agree with using the law to prevent people's rights from being eroded. Absolutely.

I don't agree with using the law to curtail people's rights to practise their religion in whatever way they see fit. I'm an atheist, but I accept that others will have different beliefs.

The key point for me is that the law should allow as much freedom as possible for individuals to live their lives as they see fit, while simultaneously ensuring that those freedoms do not in any way encroach on the freedom of others. Of course, if women are being forced to cover up by others, then their freedoms are clearly being breached and this needs to be addressed. However, there is still a debate about the best way of addressing that breach. Personally, I don't want to see oppressed women being restricted to the extent that they cannot leave their own homes.

It's the double standard I object to. In the middle east we are expected to observe and comply with their cultural norms e.g. cover the hair, arms, legs etc. but where our cultural norms are concerned they can be ignored. It's not some gracious toleration on our part, it's appeasement.

I just don’t think your understanding of my position is accurate or based on my thinking. More an assumption based on your own political views. Which is expected but doesn’t make it correct.

What you have opposed in my posts is happening now for example. In the Times today.

On freedom to and freedom from it concerns me how some devalue what we have to support religious acts antithetical to women’s freedom and equality.

ETA a lot of what I have posted is looking to what is likely, which seems to be the case wrt ECHR changing.

For the women i know who wear a burqa I would imagine that they would absolutely feel violated and exposed were they forced to remove it in the street. I would go far enough to describe that as potentially being quite traumatic for them. Whether that's due to cultural expectations they've been raised within or personal choice is neither here nor there - it's just a disgusting thing to do to a woman if it makes her feel unsafe and vulnerable. Which let's be clear, it would.

"It's a badge of submission and a sign that the wearer is not a person but a possession to be kept private." In YOUR opinion. In the opinion of plenty of other women this is not the case.

"That is part of the purpose in some cases, but it interferes with our culture and our needs" who made your needs more important than the needs of women who wear a burqa? Are women who wear a burqa not part of the community they live in? Are their needs not included in the needs of the society they live in?

Many of the women I work with who wear a burqa are here fleeing persecution and have been through extensive trauma and yet here you are - ironically under the guise of concern for women - talking about criminalising them and making them think twice about coming here to escape persecution. Jesus.

There is good reason why we should prosecute Johns and not sex workers themselves - criminalising the victim is never a good option. So if, as you say, someone is being treated as property - why would be condemn THEM for that rather than condemning the person who has claimed ownership? The attitude you're expressing is deeply misogynistic.

I would also love to know the stats as to how many crimes are committed here by women wearing a burqa. I really cannot see those figures being high at all. Which is where this argument, for me, falls into the category of racist fear mongering as it perpetuates the narrative that immigrants are dangerous and should be feared rather than understood and accepted into society.

The thing is, I don't aspire for our country to be like the Middle East.

Tolerance, open-mindedness and respect for different points of view are aspects of our culture that I have always valued. I would not ever want us to impose our cultural expectations on others in the way that some countries do. The freedom for people in our society to make their own choices is a strength, not a weakness.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about exactly, with regard to what I have opposed in your posts?

Well you wouldn't be forcibly disrobed (another attempt to make it sound sexual) because if we passed a law you wouldn't be doing it.

All decent people obey laws without being forced. We stop at red lights without a big drama and without having our car rammed by police vehicles or our tires shredded.

Imagine someone objecting to introducing that law.

"it won't work. How dare someone limit my freedom to drive where I like and it would be frightening to see people being run off the road at every intersection to enforce it"

That doesn't happen does it in a normal day. You might never see someone run or be prevented from running a red light and we sleep ok without being disturbed at having lost the right to do it.

As for knowing the difference between a temporary Covid mask in an outbreak, a hood pulled down in the rain and so on you already know the difference and you pictured it when you typed that in.

Yes it should absolutely be banned in any public place. It's a symbol of oppression. Nothing else.

But surely that's why it's important that women are allowed to dress how they feel comfortable - to me we'd be no different if we start to police women on what they can or cannot wear. Being forced to show any particular body part, to me, is no better than being forced to hide any particular body part.

I’m afraid I can’t sum up mn interactions but whatever has lead you to declare my position should cover it.

Nah the issue is with Muslim women peacefully going about their lives.

Nope, no idea what you're talking about, sorry.