Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

In fairness I'm not sure it's fair to say that change is entirely without their consent. I work with many young women who choose to wear modest dress of various degrees from hijab to burqa and all are living independently and are definitely doing it out of choice and are very proud of the identity they associate with it. Many of them will also talk about feeling its a form of protection for them against being over sexualised by men and that makes them feel safer and more respected and feel its liberating not to have to think about how their appearance will be received by other people ie what they wear, the way they style their hair or for those who wear face coverings - their makeup etc. They very much hold a sense of pride in their choice and they socialise just the same with other young women regardless of what they're wearing so I really do believe they know they could uncover should they choose to. I would also say that most of them strongly resent the idea that they are unable to make that choice for themselves and feel very insulted that just because they choose to wear modest dressing that they are seen as controlled or that they don't have a voice. They would definitely feel unwelcome in the UK and controlled if they were told they are not allowed to wear their coverings and would strongly protest it. And I'd support them 100%. For me a government controlling what women wear is no better than a government controlling what's done with women's bodies.

If you want to address the control of women, then address that entitlement among men, just as you'd address it with any man who forces his partner to wear skimpy clothing or conservative clothing or to always dress very 'feminine' . The clothing itself doesn't matter the control does- there will always be a scale of modest dressing for women the issue is who picks the point on the scale. The burqa is just one of the furthest ends of that scale so it's an easy and obvious symbol to pick but that's deeply unfair to the women who wear it that they should be chosen as a worthy cause whether they like it or not.

Addressing male entitlement, education around female bodies for men, challenging misogynistic thinking among men in all communities, fostering mutual understanding among children and young people and creating safe spaces for women and better resources for women who need to leave difficult situations is the focus. Not one specific type of clothing.

This is why I feel very strongly that all education should be secular and that education outside of the state sector needs to be properly regulated. All children, regardless of background, should be exposed to a range of different views and thinking in their formative years.

"My concern is not about one of personal displeasure at seeing dark, shrouded figures on the street( even though it is creepy and unsettling"

I also think it's very very important to recognise that for many people the urge to ban the burqa is absolutely more about their own discomfort, their own unconscious or conscious racism and their attitudes towards immigration as well. There are so many people who feel entitled to abuse women wearing full covering because THEY are uncomfortable with it instead of being motivated to educate themselves. If you're seeing the covering more than the woman and your only suggestion is they undress so you can identify with them more and feel safer around them, then I'd suggest that's kind of a you problem. It's certainly not their issue to fix.

If you want to address misogyny and control of vulnerable women then that's a different conversation.

How are you going to counteract religious indoctrination at home?

What would you say to a young girl for example about wearing a burka

IMO There are 3 issues regarding the wearing of the burka

1. Public safety, as Sara Mochin said. We ask people to remove motorbike helmets in stores, why not the burka? Do we know who is under these garments?

2.Health issues. Wearing occlusive garments prevents the sun reaching the skin and this could cause Vit D deficiency because sunlight is needed to synthesise this vitamin naturally. This is especially important in growing girls. Years ago in areas like Manchester/Salford people living in "back to back" terraced houses suffered with rickets as a result of non-exposure to sunlight.

3.It begs the question "Are women wearing this garment through choice or coercion?"

Personally I don't agree with bans.

If you ban an activity then you criminalize the people engaging in that activity. So you need the resources to enforce such a ban.
With the planned cuts to the police force this would be problematic.

However, as a health-care worker, I think there should be more discussion and education regarding point 2

As I mentioned above i think some of the younger, educated women are wearing them as political statements........ and the issue for me is that I take issue with those political statements......because they are Islamist statements that reflect on the value and role of women and girls generally. And in our society more specifically.

Islamism is a political movement and ideology which seeks to spread itself all over the world and to create an Islamic caliphate.

I've certainly seen an increase here in women wearing burqas

I mean I grew up in a home where I was told my skirt couldn't go above my knee and it was wrong to have a top that went lower than the collar bone or showed off your arms. Shaving and wearing makeup were also out of the question because then men would find you attractive and be led to sin by you. That's a pretty average Christian household and there's many, many Christian churches that teach girls that they must dress modestly in order to 'protect' boys from urges they cannot control.

What do we do to counteract that religious indoctrination? Or is that type of control over female dress OK because its Christian based and many of the people saying it are white and its accepted in our society?

At the end of the day, all we can ever do is expose children and young people to as much variety as possible and then allow them to make their own choices. That's how we build a society that supports mutual understanding and respect for difference which in itself tackles misogyny and control. There will always be children who receive horrible or negative messages at home, but that doesn't mean we get to control them like their parents do. We educate and support them.

If kids are exposed to a multiplicity of views while growing up, they quite often begin up question things for themselves. And if our education system proactively teaches children about equality and encourages young women from all backgrounds to recognise that they have agency and choice in their lives, then that will help them to make their own decisions.

I used to employ a young Muslim woman who came from a fairly conservative Muslim family in which all of the women wore hijab. Having grown up interacting with all sorts of different people, including non Muslims, Muslims who didn't feel the need to cover up etc, she reached the conclusion that she didn't want to wear the hijab and stopped doing so. I think it caused a bit of a stir in her family initially, but they got used to it.

As to what I would say to a young girl about wearing a burka, I suppose it would depend on the context and relationship etc. But essentially, it would be the same message that I would want to give to any young girl about equality and the freedom to make their own choices.

To be clear, I don't like seeing young girls with their faces covered. I also don't like seeing young girls dressed in highly sexualised clothing. However, I am not a fan of dictating how girls and women should dress in either scenario. I am a fan of encouraging young women to believe that what they wear is entirely their decision.

I don't think we should be so ready to accept religious practises which are not in line with standards of freedom and equality in this society.

The issue is with covering the face. Nuns, monks and priests dont' do this.

So is Christianity though? Which is the reason why women have had government controls on medical procedures/ issues with accessing contraception for many years and has caused plenty of wars, never mind the impact on the lgbtqa+ population? My question would be why are we only concerned about the spread of Islam? Especially when there are plenty of people who subscribe to Islam who are just quietly living out their day to day alongside everyone else. It's fear mongering and right wing propaganda papers stirring the pot.

@bridesheadremoved mentions public safety as a valid concern - I'd say that's playing into the negative public perception of immigrants, namely non white immigrants. A woman in a burqa in a shop has a reason to be wearing it, a man in a ski mask in a shop does not.

And as for concern about vitamin d - there's also the option of doing work with women who wear modest dress about the importance of supplements and diet. Surely a much easier fix and more supportive than suggesting we should ban their clothing and right to religious expression.

I do agree that some young women are choosing to cover for predominantly political reasons rather than religious/cultural ones. In some cases, that may well be because they support Islamist ideologies. However, I think there are also quite a few who are doing it as a "fuck you" to the Islamophobia that they are seeing in their communities. They see it as making a statement that they are "Muslim and Proud". Which is entirely their prerogative.

Actually veiled nuns do exist within the Catholic Church. It's not as common as wearing a head covering that leaves the face exposed but it is a known practice.

A burkha is so far beyond the category of "modest dress" though, would you not agree?

I have never seen or heard of it and I am pretty sure nearly no-one else has either, including the person who wrote that post being as she included priests and monks too.

Her point clearly was to argue it was racist to object to Islamic robes but not Christian ones, through pretending we were objecting robes, not face coverings.

That’s concerning in itself.

I would say it's at the extreme end of the scale absolutely, but I would still class it as modest dress as that's why it's worn.

@IPreacts My issue is that where does it begin and end though? For me, when you start dictating what women wear in any capacity it's a slippery slope and there is no room anywhere for policing what clothing women put on their bodies. There will always be someone who will come along and argue that it needs to be taken further (in both directions) so to me, it's best not to dictate in any way.

Why is that concerning in itself though?

I think it's quite an understandable reaction to the racism and anti immigration sentiment that is rising in the UK?

Yes, I agree. It's deeply concerning that the level of Islamophobia in our society now is leading to young muslims sometimes feeling so marginalised that they are drifting towards this kind of identity politics. Sadly, I think it is the inevitable consequence of the prevalent right wing rhetoric that has sought to demonise them and emphasise their "otherness".

A ‘fuck you’ anger that results in religious practise that is antithetical to equality and freedom. We should be aware of what we have for women here. It was hard won and is valuable.

The rise in more conservative religious resurgency in Islam has been going on for many decades and across the world and in majority Muslim countries too. Its a movement that has arisen within Islam rather than as a reaction to external 'marginalisation'.

There's also a big rise in Conservative practices in all capacities, whether the idea of the 'trad wife' or conservative Christian practices such as young women starting to wear head coverings.

I agree we should be aware of what women have here, and I think we should also be aware of creating a society that's more accepting of diversity. The attitudes many - in fact - all of the Muslim young people I work with, have had to deal with has been actually disgusting so I don't think their justified anger to their experience of racism is the issue. I think the racism is the issue.

It isn't necessarily antithetical to equality and freedom if those young women are choosing to express their defiance against the islamophobes by adopting a dress code that visibly identifies them as muslim. They are entitled to express themselves in whatever way they see fit

I don't personally welcome that kind of polarisation along religious lines, but I see it as one of the inevitable products of the rise in right wing sentiment.

I don’t think we agree tbf I see your post as concerning but for other reasons.

Well, it's no surprise that we don't agree. I think we're both aware that you're considerably further to the right than I am, so it's unlikely that we are going to see eye to eye.

But do tell me what is so concerning about my post.