Quakers in Britain think this is radical

[princessleah1]

https://www.quaker.org.uk/documents/statement-of-policy-on-provision-of-trans-inclusive-facilities-bym

This is the Quaker response to the Supreme Court judgement. It's the usual flim flam about respecting people's rights...unless those people happen to be women

I visit Friends Meeting House in Euston about once a month. Signs have gone up next to all of the blocks of loos - since my last visit (March, I think) - saying that all loos are trans inclusive and that there are self contained loos on the top floor for anyone who wants to use them.

I went up to the top floor and there’s a block of floor to ceiling cubicles with basins included.

It aligns with the suggestion that TRAs often make - they should have a special set of loos for bigots.

They are perfectly pleasant and I’m happy to use them. I meant to check to see what signs were on the doors of all the other blocks. I suspect that they haven’t changed them - which would be illegal of course. They wouldn’t be meeting the needs of TRAs if they made them mixed sex.

One of the things that I miss most about going to Mass is the pageantry - the robes, the ceremony, the incense, the old school hymns, the old school liturgy, the audience participation of the big events like Easter, the priests who gave good Mass 😬 As an atheist I think I could still enjoy those elements: it's unfortunate that I simply don't believe in God. It was harder being a non-believer 30 years ago when Ireland was still so culturally Catholic, I got a lot of push back and anger from relatives and neighbours for leaving the religion. It's much easier now because so many people are only interested in attending Mass for feast days and life moments like First Communion and Confirmation.

Yeah, I miss that too. Think that Sunday Assembly was set up to cater to the human need to gather and sing together as a community but not sure if they’re still going?

Their non-religious secular meetings had pop songs instead of hymns and talks instead of sermons.
Maybe someone should set up similar but with cassocks and incense?

Aren't the Quakers really just the Lib Dems at prayer?

The analogy between Quaker belief and transgenderism is incorrect. Quakers believed/believe in ‘The Light Within’. Other descriptions were used but the basis was that everyone possessed ‘That of God’ (or the Holy Spirit) within them. It was not an identity and was not corporeal. James Nayler, an early Friend said this just before his death. He had been cruelly persecuted for his Faith. “There is a spirit which I feel that delights to do no evil…..” The full text can be found in Quaker Faith and Practice.

The fantastic ground breaking work that Quakers have done over the centuries has been due to their belief of being led by the Spirit. The history of the Religious Society of Friends is both fascinating and interesting. Their influence on British history far outweighs the relatively low membership.

IMHO the organisation seems to have become unmoored from its roots. The Christian scaffolding that held it up has been dismantled bit by bit. It was well ahead of its time in its thinking about human rights, particularly women’s rights. This is wholly at odds with transgender ideology which is not about equality but seeks to undermine the rights of others.

Quakers have a reputation for plain speaking and being truthful. There is nothing truthful about trans ideology. People cannot change sex. There has to be a way of acceptance that upholds transgender people’s rights to express themselves outwardly as they wish but without undermining the rights of others.

If only …. That might be just about bearable- they are now the Greens meditating. Ditched God, ditched science, logic, common sense and decent ethics.

Was also thinking about the post you replied to last night.

The other element to understand about Quakerism is that despite the Inner Light and personal contemplation it is not an inward looking faith. Quakerism carries a strong sense of external action, of living your faith and values in the world and in what you do, hence Quaker involvement in activism and social justice.

Like you I don't think there's anything inherent in the Quaker belief that makes Quakers more likely to also believe in Genderism, I think it's just because their traditionally activist and left-leaning culture especially in young friends means there is a large overlap with Omnicause circles. Was exactly the same when I was a young friend 30+ years ago. The causes were different but the culture of activism and being on the Right Side Of History was the same.

I always admired the Quaker movement, but a while ago the local meeting house declared its accommodations were for released paedophiles. Ok, they’ve got to live somewhere, but welcoming them seemed a trifle over-enthusiastic. There are also rainbows and Palestinian flags over their entrance.

I have been to Friends House several times and used it for room hire purposes. It had single sex facilities at that time. As the decision maker, I also liked the ethical flavour of it as a non-profit organisation, for example stressing the ethical credentials of their catering provider. This decision is pretty disappointing.

One thing I would say that it is an absolutely huge building, with long corridors and several floors. You can be a long way from Reception and definitely out of earshot. I know that at least one set of toilets is in such a location. I would not want to find myself in an enclosed space there with any man who had ill intent, as the chances of attracting help would not be high.

I recommend Quakerology to anyone on this thread seeking a frank discussion about gender ideology within the Religious Society of Friends of the Truth, the traditional full name of Quakers in Britain.

One of the most popular episodes is with Heather Brunskell-Evans, the Quaker philosopher who wrote Transgender Body Politics.

www.heather-brunskell-evans.co.uk

Thanks so much for posting this. I wasn't aware of Emma's channel until now... It was very helpful and extremely relevant to where i am right now, as a spiritually homeless person just arrived in a liberal Christian community trying to keep my integrity and asking to be accepted for who I am, but feeling very isolated.

I see Emma has also a long conversation with Marisa Johnson which I shall need to steel myself to listen to when I can face it.

Meh - my PhD is on the early Quaker movement. Many were in Cromwell's army - the Peace Principle didn't come in until 1660.

Sure there is amazing activism for prison reform, anti slavery, poverty etc in the history of the movement. They were discriminated against - alongside other Dissenters and Catholics. Limited largely to business because of this they didn't haggle and were deemed trustworthy - 'Let your yes be yes and your no be no'. But even in the 17th century the leadership (for there was even though it was a priesthood of all believers) attracted those who liked being in control. I remember in the archives reading about a senior male Friend who had got his servant girl pregnant - the response was effectively no different to that of any other religious group.

Totally.

The Inner Light theology evolved in the 1670s from the earlier 1650s Quaker belief that 'Christ the Light' and a new covenant was being lived through the community in each adherent. It mapped theologically onto the Old Covenant with the Jews. When their eschatological beliefs weren't realised around late 1650s/1660, the Quakers shifted slowly from Christ the Light to the Inner Light. You can see this if you compare early Fox/Naylor texts with later Fox/Penn texts.

I do like Quakers and have spent time researching at Friends House in London. But not being able to call man a man is a long way from Quaker plain speaking.

Mind you in my line of work, which is supposedly about freedom of thought and knowledge, genderwoo is the norm. As someone said to me, workplaces want people who look different but think the same.

Elizabeth Fry was a Quaker and she would be turning in her grave at the way the Quaker way has be corrupted

I see Emma has also a long conversation with Marisa Johnson which I shall need to steel myself to listen to when I can face it.

I've just listened to this - a bit of a marathon. I do appreciate both Marisa and Emma for having this conversation, even if parts of it had me tearing my hair out, as the standard model until now for Quakers in authority has been to shun and silence sex-realist Quakers.

One of the many bits I found quite compelling was very near the end, when Marisa asked Emma if she saw Marisa's child - a thirty-something transman - as a man, and Emma admitted that no, she didn't see Marisa's child as a man. Marisa then asked Emma how she'd feel if Emma's same-sex marriage was minimised or devalued by other Quakers. (I paraphrase a bit.)

Emma was quite pragmatic in her answer, but I found myself wanting to tell Marisa that this is exactly what she, Marisa, was doing every time she described her trans-identified child, in a relationship with a man, as "gay". It's appropriative and an erasure of gay people to describe a heterosexual relationship as gay. Words mean things. I wish this couple every happiness, and it's lovely that her child has found a partnership that suits them, but as an opposite-sex couple they'd never have been forbidden to marry, never have been forbidden to visit each other in hospital as each other's significant other, etc etc. They may be homogender (for those who believe in gender), but they are not homosexual, and Marisa wades straight into dismissing and devaluing of homosexuality to insist that they are. She truly doesn't seem to realise how homophobic she's being.