Quakers in Britain think this is radical

[princessleah1]

https://www.quaker.org.uk/documents/statement-of-policy-on-provision-of-trans-inclusive-facilities-bym

This is the Quaker response to the Supreme Court judgement. It's the usual flim flam about respecting people's rights...unless those people happen to be women

please like and follow https://www.facebook.com/sexmatterstoquakers

It's a bit confusing, and I wonder how members will react to it. On one hand they say:
We will not label something as a single-sex space if we cannot truthfully guarantee that it will be single-sex.

But then again, they also say:
All our public facilities are trans inclusive. This means that toilets labelled with a 'female' sign are intended for cis women, trans women, and non-binary and intersex people for whom this toilet is the best aligned with their lived experience. Toilets labelled with a ‘male’ sign are intended for cis men, trans men, and non-binary and intersex people for whom this toilet is the best aligned with their lived experience.

Better take the labels off the doors, methinks. There's just no way to make an honest promise that they mean anything at all.

Another ex Quaker here. I´m in two minds about the toilet thing that was written about in the Telegraph. Some Quakers who are now in their 60s and 70s will remember Young Friends gatherings where we all slept on the meeting house floor together as teenagers, regardless of sex. So the toilet thing might not feel threatening to them, more nostalgic.

It's more worrying that not-a-few Friends have "transed" their teenage children and I think that is one reason for this policy. They may have been on the fringes of Quakerism before but once their children become trans their have upped their commitment to the Society. Working class girls who are gender non conforming might be encouraged to play football, aspire to join the police or (horrors of horrors) the forces. But none of these are Quakerly things whereas being a teenage trans activist is. Hopefully this will change as the trans craze declines. But for the moment its a case of the situation that Helen Joyce described which is that the people who have transed their children will be the last to give it up. And that applies to the Quaker Body as a whole as well as individual parents.

Given that these trans Young Friends exist, have been enabled by Friends and feel safety in the Society, is it right to suddenly take that safety away from them? Many of them feel pretty hunted right now because the trans paradise they looked forward a few years ago isn't emerging. And maybe Young Friends is a better place for them than some trans youth clubs out there.

One of the things non-Quakers don't understand about Quakers is that, although they have a strong sense of justice, its limited to certain issues. They often find interpersonal things difficult. So it will be hard for many Friends to understand that trans is not the new gay and talking about things such as AGPs and top surgery will make them feel uncomfortable (much harder than using a unisex toilet!). Even as a child I was aware that many people attracted to Quakers were what we would now call neurodiverse.

They might change their mind if they are challenged by a detransitioner who says they hacked off body parts as a result of being encouraged to come out as trans at Quaker Summer School.

As some others have said this is related to the tension between God and secularism in Quakers. This isn't a new thing. Quakers have a historic pendulum on this, but now its extreme. You can use any toilet you want but heaven forbid you should recycle something in the wrong bin!

NC regular here

Another ex-Quaker! I'm surprised to see so many of us here given what a small number of Quakers there are. Are Quakers/ex-Quakers statistically over-represented in FWR or is FWR bigger than I realised?

@Dorcas007 's post is on the money I think.

I am optimistic about Friends though. Modern UK Quakers have always tended to the yogurt-weavy side but they are also not afraid to stand up for views outside the mainstream especially views they think are being silenced. And they will notice who is being silenced; it's kind of their thing 😂

@Dorcas007 I hadn't really thought about the neurodiverse thing but OMG you are so right!

And, just to add to the count, another NC ex-Quaker here (~40 years -ish involvement in varying amounts). I resigned my membership before I was aware of the TQ+ issue going on. If I hadn't done it then, I'm sure I'd be resigning now.

Another long term Quaker here, yes the neurodiverse comment resonates with me too - when I was young, my dad insisted you could recognize certain groups of people as being ‘Quaker or gifted kids (the NAGC, which may or may not exist any more)’, and was always right. And on reflection I think it was middle class neurodiversity which was the common factor!

I think we are probably statistically over represented in any area concerned with issues of justice and women’s rights - those were the things that attracted me to quakers 36yrs ago, and it’s the abandonment of those principles by Friends House that caused me to resign.

As I understand it, Friends House are claiming that they do provide single-sex facilities in the form of single, self-contained cubicles. Leaving aside the (very considerable) issues of the number and location of these, compared to the ease of accessing the usual facilities - these are unisex facilities, not single-sex facilities. There's a wealth of evidence - and accounts from lived experience - that many, many women don't like these, don't feel safe in these either, and that they don't see these as providing the facilities they need. I don't know if it is ignorance or dishonesty that leads Friends House in characterising these as an adequate substitution for single-sex facilities, but it's not good enough.

So the Robin Moira White solution: third (fourth?) spaces to be used by women who don’t wish to share with men, while men are welcomed into the women’s.

So no single sex toilets then, which may be illegal if it can be shown this is discriminatory against/detrimental to women.

I went to the Quaker meeting house in my city (USA) for the first time in years. I wasn’t there for an actual meeting, just stopped by for an event. I was floored by what I saw. There were so many posters for Trans rights, Palestine, and anti-racism. It didn’t feel at all like a place of worship, it felt like a cult with a political agenda. To be fair none of the members present said anything related to what was on the posters, but it was all there. And in the children’s library was a book about trans children. I was raised going to Quaker meeting, and now I’m so horrified to see what’s become of Quakerism (or at least this particular meeting house, the USA is a large country so I’m not sure how representative it is).

That is sad to hear.

What's wrong with anti-racism posters? You are aware a commitment to social justice is a core Quaker value?

Much like the “trans rights are human rights” and other slogans, it’s not at all what it sounds like.

Quakers in Britain is in a similar condition. Not so much a worshipping community as a relaxation space for political activists, and Quaker charities are being used to fund protest legislation protecting British Jews.
This makes interesting reading.

Quakers kept excellent records, and so in my family history research I’ve been able to trace one branch of my family tree back to the very early Quakers in England in the mid 1600s. There were seen as dissenters that were so radical and dangerous some of them were imprisoned. (My umpteen times grandmother was imprisoned for disrupting an Easter Day church service, she took her baby son with her to prison as he was still “suckling” and he died while she was there.) All because they believed that all men and women are equal and can have a direct relationship with God rather than controlled by the Church via penances, communion, Latin liturgy etc.

Like all religions, once it expanded and people started arguing about the “rules” then the core aim started to drift. But the concept of an atheist Quaker makes as much (ie no) sense as an atheist for any other religion, it’s just expressing a cultural position. As a movement Quakers had a very strong Christian faith, up to relatively recently. Nowadays it seems to be a sort of communal meditation and social justice warrior movement.

What anti-racist slogans are you talking about and how is it "not what it sounds like"?

A very interesting read, I’m gonna pass it along!

Yep. When I think back to the hand-wringing and delicate feelings and ultimate decision not to put a cross anywhere visible in our Meeting House, despite the fact that Quakerism is originally a Christian sect...! Not that I disagree necessarily with choosing not to, but it stands in stark contrast with the fucking flags everywhere, whose meanings are at least as contentious and deserving of thoughtful discernment as a cross.

Throwing an open can of worms in here as well... what about the Quaker boarding schools? Are they going to stop having single-sex boarding houses? Eek!

Do you really need a poster to remind you not to be racist? How odd.

I very concerning thought. I went to a Quaker sleep away camp for many years and it was strictly sex segregated. There were only a few showers so it was pretty common for girls to shower together (the camp went up to age 14). Letting a boy into that shower house…

Came across this yesterday on youtube (I follow the This isn't Working podcast), and then saw this thread today!

So popping it here as it may be of interest to those on this thread:

Tanya de Grunawald (HR expert) on the Quakerology podcast discussing inclusion.

Once you understand that the Society of Friends (Quakers is an eighteenth century insult because members of the sect were known to shake when possessed by the Spirit) embraces the idea that one can have an inner reality that cannot be rationally or logically explained but that may appear in the Spirit during meetings or at other times, then their attitude to trans ideology is totally explicable since it too is a system of belief that says the inner feelings of a person have objective reality which can be expressed by the owner. That said, they will be breaking the law if they allow TiMs in the ladies and should arm themselves because not all groups who use meeting houses believe in gender woo (though sadly a lot do).
The CofE have the same blind spot about trans ideology again based on inner reality being something of which others must take account. It is, of course, entirely possible to be CofE or a Friend and have GC views - just be careful where you mention them (because that particular inner reality is not accepted - I know, logic is not in it).

Oh I liked Benediction. It was brief, and yes, lots of incense. I can still remember the words to Tantum Ergo, a pleasant tune and also blessedly short.

Another Irish Catholic atheist here. The best sort of atheist IMO.