Kellie Jay Keen

[Beebop2025]

Just watched KJK talking about all things trans on a Tanya De Grunwald podcast ( great podcast) - she says she is banned from mumsnet? I just wondered why she was banned.

Another key norm that the left want to destroy is obviously the family.

Marriage is oppressive, children don't need 2 parents, women don't need men, adult fulfillment is more important than children's needs, working is better than raising children, anyone can bring up your child, a family is whatever you say it is, all family structures are equally valid, all children must be indoctrinated into leftist ideals by the state via education.

This has been pretty successful. They even got the right to support it. Just as they did with trans until they caught on at the last moment.

And if you can't see the link between this thinking and trans ideology you're really not trying hard.

Also while they're all dissing marriage and the nuclear family they themselves are getting and staying married and conferring all the economic advantages from that on their own kids.

It's always the most vulnerable that suffer from their stupid ideas.

I disagree - I think class is about attitudes and beliefs as much as it is money. I believe that someone who hold "liberal elite" beliefs will remain middle class even if they lose all their money, and likewise a no-nonsense, white van driving, beer and football loving electrician does not become middle class just because his business takes off and he becomes rich.

I had friends whose parents were working class made good... ashamed of the way their parents made money and their working class attitudes. The parents never changed class, and the kids only changed class to become middle class because they were indocrinated into a beliefs system at a school for rich kids.

I agree with this. I grew up on a council estate in the East End of London. I left school at 16 to get a job so never even went into 6th form let alone university. I have a cockney accent and must of my friends are in labouring type jobs. However, I own my house and earn good money but I don’t think that makes me middle class. As Micky Flanagan once said, I’m working class with middle class trappings!

Ive been searching for the far right Christian manifesto all day, but cant find it.

One of the big blind spots with the left right now, but its problably goes across the board, is they refuse to see that the electorate can only vote for who puts themselves forward. Americans had a choice between trump or harris, who lied about men being women and lied about the health of Biden. Their mentality was that if voters didnt like harris, and were meh about trump, they shouldnt vote at all. Therefore assumed everyone voting for trump supports everything the left fear about him.

Labour were lucky in that Conservative voters did stay away at the last election, so the left think they can apply that pressure again. Not only to tory voters, but to labour voters who dont like the way the party to heading.

But just as the democrats didnt appreciate that people were voting against them as much as for trump, I dont think on line labour appreciate how many people will vote against them in the next election. And it could be that their only choice is reform.

Basically, if the left wing dont want people voting for trump or farage, they need to sort their own house out.

It's not really an agree or disagree question, class is defined by economic role, not your opinions or taste in music. That's literally what it means.

I wonder if this is in part because they can't get their head around the idea that some of these groups might have some policies that have some level of appeal?

For example, the left rhetoric about Trump is that he is really an imbecile and there is zero logic in anything his administration does or says, and that they are incompetent. However, if you go outside of left wing media, there are some interesting analyses of what they are trying to do with tariffs and all the rest, including by people who disagree with that approach. But they do take it as an attempt to address long term structural issues in the economy which it see,s the Democrats won't even acknowledge.

Similarly I've seen a lot of people not that happy with DOGE, or how some of the deportation stuff is being handled, and yet they feel that a Harris administration would have done nothing at all around those issues, and they see that lack of action as no longer viable.

Very interesting. I clearly need to think more about all this. I’ve told myself I was liberal/left/green for years only to find I don’t recognise what theyre talking about. The Blair/Brown privatisation of poly clinics in the 2000s was very surprising to me at the time. And I’ve long thought the Labour idea that children’s early years were best spent in nurseries was baffling… clearly much to think about. I need to be a proper floating voter now I think. In the polling booth but also goods and services. Gah I’ll actually need to engage my brain - more work!

I just googled "define class" and the answer backed me up more than I thought it would (and I thought it would back me up a bit)

"a system of ordering society whereby people are divided into sets based on perceived social or economic status."

People who live in big period detached houses in nice leafy areas are above those in council flats.

People with flashy cars and disposable income are above those who have to count the pennies.

People with liberal elite beliefs are above those nasty lower class racists.

Many working class people are rich than many middle class people. IMHO.

Clearly wealth and social capital interact with each other in complex ways, but I think Dave Burge nailed it back in 2019.

Am I the only one here old enough to remember this?!

https://metro.co.uk/video/ronnie-corbett-s-classic-class-sketch-1278885/

Class is a lot to do with the money you have, but its also about the means to build up the wealth again if you lose it.

The silicon valley ceo could take a break of 5 years, spend every penny finding himself, and then get another high paid job because of his contacts.

The laid off coal miner has his redundancy, but few options to get another well paid job.

I think theres something about the upper class that plan their finances for generations, that the working class and lower middle class dont do, even if they have money.

Yeah, I remember when Laurie Penny was beginning to make a name for herself, she was writing pieces in the Guardian pretending to be poor.

This was just after graduating from Oxford with a contacts book that I can't even imagine. I'm prepared to believe that Laurie was broke at the time, but broke is not the same thing as poor. An actual poor person would never have got a gig writing for the Guardian in the first place.

Social capital is a thing. I might have a more or less middle class job now, but when people who grew up middle class hear my accent, they often look at me like they're expecting me to glass them.

I don’t have to agree with everything someone says or stands for to agree with some of what they say.

I feel politically homeless right now. I have only ever voted for Labour but spoiled my ballot paper in the last GE. I couldn’t vote for my local Labour MP after voting for them in the previous election but couldn’t bring myself to vote for anyone else either. I will never for that particular person ever again. I might however be persuaded to hold my nose and vote strategically for another person if it meant my current MP would be defeated.

KJK is I think just really pissed off now and has no more fucks to give.

I think the marxist divisions lay it ou fairly well even if we aren't pedantic about them.

The working classes own nothing and sell their labour. So they are typically dependent of a salary.

The people that own companies factories or the means to make money, and things like stocks, make lots of money even though other people are actually productive in those settings.

The older versions being peasants and the aristocracy which are a similar division with land being the source of wealth.

There are also smallholders and small business people who own their own means of production but don't produce enough to really live off of the labour of others though they may employ small numbers.

Now we have the middle classes. They sell their labour like workers but will have some assets that will potentially boost their income and give stability, which they can pass on to their children: education, pensions, investments, they may own a home.

The various class based behaviours and values that we think of as belonging to the working classes, or aristocracy, or capitalist class, come out of the economic and social values that emerge from those roles. For example the reason that traditionally working classes value family or local community in a differernt way than the middle classes emerges from the greater dependence of family and community networks for social stability and help in hard times. Those things will be less necessary for a self-sufficient middle class family who will put a lot of value on education that increasing earning power, or travel to increase work opportunities.

@TempestTost "It's interesting to me that Helen Joyce doesn't seem to get the same stick for being right wing that KJK does from the left. I've seen trans acivists mention it, but not so much the left wing feminists who hate KJK."

Surely this is about class? "left wing feminists" (or at least some of them, the ones less working class and listening less to the WC) are part of a "liberal elite" that I would argue includes Cameron and Johnson as well as Starmer. They look down on KJK because she is not ideologically pure (how can she be when she speaks to people who are right of centre?) and because - despite her university education - she speaks clearly and bluntly just like any thick poor person might do.

In contrast Joyce is more respectable. She is clever enough to know not to talk to conservatives or others on the right. She speaks politely in a more middle class way, which shows she deserves respect.

Both helen and maya dont really get involved in other issues, either. Maya said as much on triggernometry. So they aren't in conflict with the left about immigration, religion, gaza.

I think the left see KJK as a rival political force, and helen as just focused on fighting trans ideology through the courts and the media. They dont have followers so much as people who donate?

She has career cred as knowledgeable and insightful on a range of topics and you’d look like an idiot calling her a fascist or a loony lefty when all the tickets are out there is surely the main point here.

I disagree.

It is absolutely clear that KJK is extremely eloquent and clever on her specialist subject. She has a knack of getting to the heart of the matter in a way that is probably better than HJ.

I respect HJ massively for her intelligence and professionalism, but KJK seems to be exactly the same apart from she hasn't edited an important magazine, whereas she is a genius marketeer and much better at reaching ordinary women.

In my view pretty much all the criticism of KJK is guilt by association, whether that is by association with (right wing and alleged right wing) people she disagrees with on many issues, but had the temerity to speak to, or association with people who are (stereotyped as) blunt and thick and working class, and therefore KJK has little value because the people she reaches have little value.

Agree - KJK talks to the working classes and therefore must be destroyed.

Also, she's been a SAHM and successful after that. Whereas the orthodoxy is that this is regressive and conservative (being a SAHM) and cannot in any way be allowed regardless of what women themselves actually want and we're not even allowed to talk about the benefit to children. A lot of the hate from people who are on her side about gender ideology is down to this and her unwavering and unapologetic belief that being a SAHM was the best thing for her children.

She's a heretic on more than one front. And she has a natural instinct for good safeguarding, which honestly the working class seem to be much better at than middle classes in my experience. So whilst she's not working class herself, she has a lot in common with the working class and doesn't talk down to them, and gives them opportunities to speak themselves.

She's given a voice to several women to speak about the grooming gangs, who'd been silenced previously.

How she manages to keep going with all the hate and violent threats against her I don't know.

I agree with this analysis.

Also, KJK has absolutely no problem whatsoever indulging in a bout of let's wind up the larpers.

it's no surprise, certainly to her, that she'll get stick because of it.

I don't like to write off the socfems as a group, because I've known and liked some, and a few have been a big influence on my thinking. But there's definitely an element of them viewing themselves as the leaders, the sophisticated thinkers who have done the analyses and have the connections to Labour MPs and have all the professional credentials.

Which isn't entirely untrue. If Labour is moving gradually towards reality, you need people who can go into a room with Wes Streeting and pitch a policy proposal. KJK is not the woman for that.

My beef with the elite lefty feminists is not that I disagree with what they're doing necessarily, it's that they think they can dictate what everyone else is doing, and try to shut down any activity or person that isn't approved by the credentialed leaders. Whereas we need a variety of people with a variety of approaches.

I think a lot of the derangement syndrome around KJK is that she's an organic leader who doesn't have credentials, just a ballsy attitude and a Trumpian genius for publicity, and even worse, she doesn't show deference to the credentialed leaders. She's uppity and they can't handle it.

And a lot of it is class or perceived class. Helen Joyce is moderately centre-right, but if you're a lefty feminist academic, she's a peer who you have no trouble imagining a cordial conversation with. While KJK may as well be a space alien from their perspective.

She's holding a LWS event outside New Scotland Yard on Saturday
Also usual Hyde Park event on Sunday

Yes, I'll buy it's a class thing. The academic socfems basically seem to despise the working class and I think that's how they see her.

I think that probably is what the affiliation thing is about too. It's not just that she talks to right wing people. It's that she talks to right wing hicks.

I don't think KJK is working class though is she? She's affluent middle class AFAIK but because she's successful without having performed the correct accoutrements that signify 'educated woman's rights campaigner' - in her accent, appearance and associations - she's treated with suspicion. If she had just ditched the lipstick and hair dye, bought her clothes from Toast, got a Substack instead of YouTube then maybe she would be Serious.

There is a lot of in-group signalling. Even among the feminists who claim not to do it.