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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

407 replies

VanishingVision · 16/05/2025 22:55

Hello! I was thinking of doing this post for a little while now as the previous posts doing this by the rather wonderful trans men here were really interesting but I didnt want to take up too much space here or take any attention away from much more important things here than what I have to say.

But I figured to just go for it before I have a big old break from the Internet for a while.

So like the title says, I'm a transwoman who accepts the SC ruling: ask me anything if you'd like to and I'll do my best to answer.

OP posts:
99victoria · 17/05/2025 18:52

This thread was going so well for the first few pages with people having honest open discussion- i was really enjoying reading it until it got taken over and manipulated by one person's agenda
Such a shame 😏

Bannedontherun · 17/05/2025 18:54

99victoria · 17/05/2025 18:52

This thread was going so well for the first few pages with people having honest open discussion- i was really enjoying reading it until it got taken over and manipulated by one person's agenda
Such a shame 😏

Yes i agree but decided to stay with it because it is important what the OP has done

tripleginandtonic · 17/05/2025 19:00

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 18:33

I agree, it's the producer of the large gamete people that don't seem to.

No, that is not what they're saying. They are explaining the difference in biological terms for you.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 17/05/2025 19:00

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 18:33

I agree, it's the producer of the large gamete people that don't seem to.

Nope guess again. I'm a former large gamete producer who no longer produces large gametes (because one of the differences between the two biological sexes is that one group stops being fertile/ releasing gametes while the other group carries on producing gametes their whole life (unless they do something /have something done to them to stop producing them)). It is having the body type formed around the production of gametes that is the thing the determines your sex not whether the system functions correctly.

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 19:01

@VanishingVision I would say that I think it could be good for trans people because I'm hoping we can just get to a point of clarity again and hopefully this could make it so the opportunists and predatory men might drop off and stop trying to use the trans label as a way of getting access to womens spaces.

I agree. As you posted this I was wondering if that is the positive take some transsexual (a description I chose deliberately, not carelessly) people can take from this. Finally, we have clarity that sex means biological sex in the Equality Act. Now those of us acting in good faith can move forward from this point.

Bannedontherun · 17/05/2025 19:03

@VanishingVision Back to violence and abuse. I would like to mention the book by Quentin Crisp, “the naked civil servant”. There is a film too, though probably dated.

He said some “gays are tough, and some toughs are gay”.

I think that trans identifying men, can and do fall victim to men who are gay and homophobic, at the same time so self loathing behaviours.

So trans women are a more attractive option, and become abused as a consequence of that.

But it is a male issue that males need to address i and my cohort are not the worlds mother.

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 19:17

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 19:01

@VanishingVision I would say that I think it could be good for trans people because I'm hoping we can just get to a point of clarity again and hopefully this could make it so the opportunists and predatory men might drop off and stop trying to use the trans label as a way of getting access to womens spaces.

I agree. As you posted this I was wondering if that is the positive take some transsexual (a description I chose deliberately, not carelessly) people can take from this. Finally, we have clarity that sex means biological sex in the Equality Act. Now those of us acting in good faith can move forward from this point.

This is probably my biggest concern with trans stuff anyway and thinking about this makes me think of somebody i came in contact with last year.

I met this man briefly who is a friend of a friend of a friend etc, it was well known he goes to sex parties, has some fetishes etc one of which is transvestism and he's very into being in 'the female role' sexually but whatever, each to their own it was something he does privately I assumed. I discovered later he was now referring to himself as she/her and is gender fluid and has assumed a female identity part time but it's purely a sex thing, the whole purpose of this identity is to 'be a little slut'. The whole female aspect is sexual to him. I also know that he was accused of DV to a female partner of his and SA'd somebody at a party.
I've discovered recently he is actually saying he is a woman now and uses womens spaces. Honestly I was so appaled and upset because his whole female identity is based on sex, its a kink. It's a fetish and he's made this a full time thing so him being in those spaces would be a sex thing and he is also likely dangerous.

This sort of thing is my main concern, honestly if I have to piss with the boys to keep him out then yes. I support that 🤷‍♀️

I think people like him being ostracised from the trans community is obviously good for women but also very good for us and id like to see that sort of thing start to happen. As a side note, I have no issue with what anybody does with other consenting adults. No judgements at all. People can have their tastes and kinks, but it should be kept private.

OP posts:
MumOfYoungTransAdult · 17/05/2025 19:19

Thank you @VanishingVision

Actually my local swimming pool has a range of changing faciliites. There's a shared changing room with showers for men, and one for women; but there are also individual unisex cubicles round the poolside and there are open poolside showers which people use costume-on. (Also there's a unisex "family change" room with large cubicles inside, and a unisex individual change and shower adapted for people with disabilites - we really have it all!)

Could something like that work for you? Because maybe there's more of it around already than it seems. Or maybe it will need more adaptation.

It's a good point about needing DV services. Some GC women in Scotland did start talking about ways to deliver that without affecting women's services but they got over-ridden by self-id. Also a good point that it doesn't have to be women's job to provide it, but the women who've been working against male violence do have a lot of useful experience and if it was a joint effort and not just "we want access to what you have" maybe that could be a positive.

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 19:19

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 17:53

You posted the link honey, what else am I supposed to take from doing that than you think it supports you (it doesn't and you should have probably read it).

errr... did you read it?

I just read your next post and I don't think you quite understood what you read. That you ask women about infertile women as if they don't fit within the category of female people, shows that there is some kind of disconnect with understanding biology and how sex is categorised and determined.

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 19:22

Bannedontherun · 17/05/2025 19:03

@VanishingVision Back to violence and abuse. I would like to mention the book by Quentin Crisp, “the naked civil servant”. There is a film too, though probably dated.

He said some “gays are tough, and some toughs are gay”.

I think that trans identifying men, can and do fall victim to men who are gay and homophobic, at the same time so self loathing behaviours.

So trans women are a more attractive option, and become abused as a consequence of that.

But it is a male issue that males need to address i and my cohort are not the worlds mother.

This is true, some 'tr*nny chasers' are closet homosexuals and they know this but there are also men who consider themselves to be straight who are attracted to TW but they are ashamed by it, mostly because their mates might call them 'gay', that's been my experience of dating men mostly.

I think the shame of both groups of men can lead to violence towards us in relationships.

OP posts:
JohnnyRememberMe · 17/05/2025 19:23

The media has been heavy with transwomen talking about the effects of the SC judgement on their lives. Its good to hear that you agree with its clarification of the Equality Act 2010

Why did you want to talk to feminists about your opinion?

Why do.you have an F on your passport? I have a trans niece who has M on hers. Despite medical intervention, she will always be a woman. In my opinion, we should never have allowed important documents to be falsified.

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 19:34

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 17/05/2025 19:19

Thank you @VanishingVision

Actually my local swimming pool has a range of changing faciliites. There's a shared changing room with showers for men, and one for women; but there are also individual unisex cubicles round the poolside and there are open poolside showers which people use costume-on. (Also there's a unisex "family change" room with large cubicles inside, and a unisex individual change and shower adapted for people with disabilites - we really have it all!)

Could something like that work for you? Because maybe there's more of it around already than it seems. Or maybe it will need more adaptation.

It's a good point about needing DV services. Some GC women in Scotland did start talking about ways to deliver that without affecting women's services but they got over-ridden by self-id. Also a good point that it doesn't have to be women's job to provide it, but the women who've been working against male violence do have a lot of useful experience and if it was a joint effort and not just "we want access to what you have" maybe that could be a positive.

Maybe more places do have this facilities, I just assume that they don't 🤣

I think that it's likely that there are just more experienced women who work in that field than there are men and have much more to offer when talking about male violence than a man does. I relate to women much easier when Ive talked about my experiences of r*pe/SA than I would a man when I've spoken to them, even though my experience is still different than that of a biological woman.
I think a joint effort makes sense. Though I'd actually think it'd be good to have a service for us like that be ran by TW and maybe advised by a female staff who knows a bit more about how to cater for victims? I did read somewhere a TW in Scotland has set something up like that.

OP posts:
WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 19:35

This sort of thing is my main concern, honestly if I have to piss with the boys to keep him out then yes. I support that 🤷‍♀️

And I thank you for it. He sounds like exactly the sort of man that we have been raising red flags about for years. The sort of man that the TRAs have done everything in their power to deny exist. Men who are sexually aroused by wearing women's clothing or accessing women's spaces or imagining themselves as a female or having some other relevant fetish are estimated to be in the region of 80% of the 'trans community'.

Bannedontherun · 17/05/2025 19:37

My god i wish this was a conversation in the mainstream

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 19:39

JohnnyRememberMe · 17/05/2025 19:23

The media has been heavy with transwomen talking about the effects of the SC judgement on their lives. Its good to hear that you agree with its clarification of the Equality Act 2010

Why did you want to talk to feminists about your opinion?

Why do.you have an F on your passport? I have a trans niece who has M on hers. Despite medical intervention, she will always be a woman. In my opinion, we should never have allowed important documents to be falsified.

I joined mumsnet about a month ago now to interact here, typically trans people think everyone here is violently transphobic so I decided to join and interact and see if that was true. I don't think that's the case 🤷‍♀️

When I first began transitioning i wasn't actually aware that I could change my documents or passport, I figured it would always say 'm'. As people began to seem to be more naturally referring to me as 'she' when I met them, it was suggested by my DR it would make sense to change my passport as it could be more practical when travelling if I was generally assumed to be female or least obviously seen to be a trans woman and that was why I changed it.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 19:43

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 18:33

I agree, it's the producer of the large gamete people that don't seem to.

No. Bodies are categorised around the reproductive role they have been formed around from birth to do, regardless of whether that body can, has or will produce the gametes that it has been formed to produce.

If a female person is infertile, or is menopausal, or her body has stopped producing large gametes for some reason, she is still female. She is still a woman.

There is no 'bimodal sex spectrum' because the 'axis for determining sex cannot measure that someone is 'more' female than another female person. A female person is female. Simply that. There is truly no axis for measuring how male or female someone is.

The OP is not more male or less male than any other male person. The OP has quite rightly stated this very clearly. The OP having specific surgery, or taking any hormonal treatment wouldn't or doesn't move the OP along any axis of being more or less male.

Sex is binary, as has been said on this thread already. Within each sex category there is a very wide range of body variations. No male person is more 'male' than another, no female person is more 'female' than another.

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 19:49

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 19:39

I joined mumsnet about a month ago now to interact here, typically trans people think everyone here is violently transphobic so I decided to join and interact and see if that was true. I don't think that's the case 🤷‍♀️

When I first began transitioning i wasn't actually aware that I could change my documents or passport, I figured it would always say 'm'. As people began to seem to be more naturally referring to me as 'she' when I met them, it was suggested by my DR it would make sense to change my passport as it could be more practical when travelling if I was generally assumed to be female or least obviously seen to be a trans woman and that was why I changed it.

OP, have you not interacted with feminists on MN prior to one month ago? When you say you interacted with gender critical feminists in the past and they mentioned points that changed your perspective, was that not on MN?

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 19:50

WithSilverBells · 17/05/2025 19:35

This sort of thing is my main concern, honestly if I have to piss with the boys to keep him out then yes. I support that 🤷‍♀️

And I thank you for it. He sounds like exactly the sort of man that we have been raising red flags about for years. The sort of man that the TRAs have done everything in their power to deny exist. Men who are sexually aroused by wearing women's clothing or accessing women's spaces or imagining themselves as a female or having some other relevant fetish are estimated to be in the region of 80% of the 'trans community'.

Quite honestly, if the T community could have admitted people like him existed all along and worked to keep him out I very much doubt we'd even be in the position we are now.

OP posts:
VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 19:56

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 19:49

OP, have you not interacted with feminists on MN prior to one month ago? When you say you interacted with gender critical feminists in the past and they mentioned points that changed your perspective, was that not on MN?

I'd interacted with feminists previously in some different spaces online, a little bit on reddit before they clamped down on GC sub reddits and I know some women who are GC in IRL who I don't think are posting here or in online spaces afaik but they were very open with me when I started criticising the trans community, they shared some of my views and I learned that they were GC.

I did lurk mumsnet though reading through new and current threads without an account for a year before I joined to actually chat and interact with you. I also read a lot of older GC blogs that I found in random searches.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 20:00

Thanks for clarifying OP.

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 20:19

Helleofabore · 17/05/2025 20:00

Thanks for clarifying OP.

I have also interacted with feminists too who don't consider themselves to be GC and are TWAW, I know that you may not consider them truly to be feminists here as I know GC feminists don't consider it feminism if you include TW in your feminism and there are some who believe the reverse.
I always wanted to hear both sides of it from women who call themselves feminists. I just tend to agree more with the GC side.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/05/2025 21:03

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 20:19

I have also interacted with feminists too who don't consider themselves to be GC and are TWAW, I know that you may not consider them truly to be feminists here as I know GC feminists don't consider it feminism if you include TW in your feminism and there are some who believe the reverse.
I always wanted to hear both sides of it from women who call themselves feminists. I just tend to agree more with the GC side.

My position - I don’t think a woman can’t be a feminist if she thinks TWAW. She may be strongly feminist in other aspects. It’s the position itself that I think is fundamentally and irredeemably anti feminist. Not everyone who believes it, for whatever reason.

TroubledWatersTW · 17/05/2025 21:07

BonfireLady · 17/05/2025 11:12

In which case, I do have a question but I appreciate it's probably a bit of a derail because it's not necessarily a question for the OP (because I don't know if the OP feels this way too) and I've appreciated how respectful you have been to the OP in not taking over this thread.

I'll ask my question anyway and will put it to the OP in the first instance, given it's the OP's AMA...

"If you are a TW who doesn't believe that 'we all have a gender identity', how do you make sense of your decision to transition i.e. if you don't feel like you've got the gendered soul of a woman, why do you think it resolves feelings of discomfort about yourself to have changed your body to resemble a woman's body (within the limits of surgical/hormonal possibility)?"

OP, please ignore my question if this doesn't apply to you. Troubled, I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts if the OP is happy that it's not a derail on this thread.

To expand upon my "I find it bizarre" statement and pick up on your point about a pragmatic approach to resolving dysphoria....

I'm not sure I understand why it's pragmatic. I'm not against medical transition for people who a) are over 25 (after the shift in amygdala versus frontal lobe thinking) b) have been through a very rigorous, neutral support pathway, which rules out and seeks to address every possible reason for the dysphoria (I'm not convinced this pathway exists currently, particularly in relation to autism) and c) fully understand the significant risks and known impact of their decision about their body.

However, I've got no decent answer for the very valid counter argument that it makes as much sense to support this as it does to medically support an anorexic person to stay thin or to amputate the leg of someone who feels dysphoria relating to it.

All I've got on that is that belief is very powerful: 2 billion Christians believe that it's possible for a virgin to give birth and that conception of a child can happen without sperm. I don't. But my lack of belief has no impact on their belief that there is an exception to what we know about biology and reproduction.

I wouldn't support anorexics or amputee-wannabes being medically supported in a way that enable their belief to be enacted on their body. Nor do I support situations where parents refuse life-saving medical care for their children because of their religious beliefs. But belief remains very powerful and it's a reality that it has to be accommodated in some medical treatment decisions.

But if a TW doesn't actually believe "I'm a woman because I've got a woman's soul", why is transition a pragmatic solution to dysphoria?

(I will say at this juncture that I'm reading this thread in good faith... I'm cautiously optimistic that it won't go the same way as another one I was on a while ago now where it gradually edged its way towards increasingly less ambiguous comments before turning into a full-blown fantasy about nurses in female prisons 🤮 To cap it all off, I got told by one particularly cross poster that I was to blame for the behaviour of the TW in question because I had been interacting politely - I pointed out that I didn't own MN or the internet, but to no avail. FFS 😂)

Well, a shame that this thread went down hill, sorry OP! Perhaps those wishing to discuss bimodality versus binary would kindly stop replying here and have a no-doubt riveting discussion in another thread, so that @VanishingVision can have their thread back!

To answer @BonfireLady, I'll explain the way I conceptualise myself and transition. I'm happy for anyone to disagree, this is just the way I conceptualise it.

My feeling is that, as a sexed species, our brains have certain sex-based pathways and predispositions. These would have helped guide our ancient ancestors to reproduce, seek good partners, etc. The most obvious of these sex-based brain functions is sexual attraction: males are typically sexually attracted to females, and vice versa. But clearly this sex-based difference is not so clear cut; some people experience same sex attraction, or both, or neither. I don't claim why this happens, I suspect it is developmental in the womb, but it doesn't matter even if it forms later.

I don't see any reason why other aspects of behaviour couldn't also be informed by sex-based brain differences. For example, it stands to reason to me that there must be some circuitry in the brain that controls the desire of making oneself presentable for a partner. We know many species of animals go to great lengths to make themselves look attractive to a mate, and humans certainly seem to do it too. Now what constitutes attractive does vary with culture etc, but I suspect there is some degree to which children's brains automatically observe what constitutes attractiveness for their sex, and then may try to replicate this. Just like sexuality, I think this varies considerably, some people care deeply about their attractiveness, some people not much. I don't see why this circuitry couldn't also 'miss-fire' or 'miss-specialise' and end up causing someone to try to be an attractive member of the opposite sex.

For me this is probably what gender dysphoria actually is. One or more brain features, like those that I describe, that can miss-fire and end up having the opposite-sex effect (or some mix). My experience with talking to different trans people makes me think there are a few such circuits, not just one, so any given trans person will have a mix of sex-typical and sex-atypical circuits, resulting in different presentations of GD. So in my case I'd say some sort of 'proprioception' circuit is wrong, giving me the real feeling that I shouldn't have male anatomy as I do. I also feel very strongly that I'd want to be considered by my partner to be his wife or girlfriend rather than his husband or boyfriend, which is about the only social aspect that really bothers me. Fortunately, getting one person to agree is much easier than getting all of society to change! Also I guess I've found my sense of style leans heavily to being very feminine in presentation, but that's a less strong desire for me, so maybe that circuit is only somewhat anomalous for me.

This is all just my crazy theory, like I say, feel free to shoot it to pieces, but it's how I think about it!

So with that in mind, I just see myself as a male with several mis-firing circuits in my brain. Pragmatically, I can relieve the stress they give me by 'giving in' and adopting a 'woman' role in society, even though I know I'm male. I also highly doubt ALL my brain circuits are sex-atypical, I'm sure most will probably be sex-typical, so it's a balanced trade-off for me of how 'trans' I think I am. Now whether what I've described counts as believing in 'gendered souls' or 'gender identity' is up to you, but that's how I see it myself 😅

Regarding some of your later points, the difference for me is in outcomes: transition does genuinely seem to help some people, I argue it has helped me so far. To my knowledge, amputating limbs of BIID doesn't ultimately bring positive outcomes. I transitioned because I honestly think it is a good balance given the way my brain is.

INeedAPensieve · 17/05/2025 21:14

99victoria · 17/05/2025 18:52

This thread was going so well for the first few pages with people having honest open discussion- i was really enjoying reading it until it got taken over and manipulated by one person's agenda
Such a shame 😏

I know, it was and that's why I had to step away from it. Always the same. Sadly.

But I do want to say thank you to @VanishingVision for starting it and it's been really interesting reading your thoughts and also @TroubledWatersTW and @Seethlaw

I feel like the SC judgement should now allow for provision to open up and fund third spaces and I 100% believe it will keep the chancers out of women's spaces. Unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that there are more chancers and deviants within the trans movement than those like the op. Which is so frustrating as it makes it easier for genuinely hateful people to use it as a stick to beat them with.

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