Today it's Amnesty Internation on Woman's Hour to discuss the Supreme Court judgment

[nauticant]

With Anita Rani. I am not expecting much in the way of challenges.

Yes.

This is the irritating thing. I'm guessing Jen would struggle to agree that you can put a rapist in a woman's prison. In which case, men can be part-time women, but not full-time women. Or something.

These things are never really thought through

Oh no!!!!😢

please come back, love and keep scolding educating us.

As someone who has been sa'd for a sustained period in childhood and also r*ped and now volunteer for a women's sa charity, yes I do. That charity has also set up another arm calle 'trans without abuse', which has received massive support. You can support both. In addition, I don't think you can know anyone about someone by looking at a font on a screen. What has come across through is the utter venom in you responses (as you feel strongly about the issue), so I'm out as these sort of interactions achieve nothing. Have a good day

@jenfw I feel it can be quite illustrative to compare the UK to other countries with laws that grant more privileges to males who desire to be women. For example here's one case from Germany:

https://reduxx.info/germany-balding-trans-identified-male-now-demanding-e2500-from-womens-gym-after-being-denied-access-to-showers/

Do you think this is a fair outcome, and if so would you like to see this happening here as well?

So if a fellow survivor needed a single sex environment for counselling and therapy, what do you say to that?

Your experieneces are awful, and we have single sex spaces not just to ensure safety for women such as yourself who have suffered abuse by males, but also to protect the dignity and privacy of sex for all female people; of all ages; all backgrounds and all creeds.

Single sex means single sex...it cannot mean just a few men allowed because then it is no longer single sex. Most female people appreciate the privacy afforded by knowing there will be no men in their changing rooms and toileting facilities etc. In public spaces you have to exclude all men.

They are provided and there is no threat of them being withdraw. In addition, most of the 25 women that come to the support group have no problem with trans men as the issue has been discussed. Everyone who attended has experience dv from their partners, who were all straight, male presenting men.

I think the answer is to provide women only and gender neutral toilets / spaces which are found in quite a lot of cities now. Would ensure that everyone is protected.

You're not a feminist in all honesty, you are fooling yourself. Feminism means caring about all women, not just your mates and people like you (who are good girls who put men first).

If you come to a women's rights forum, and say silly and offensive things that really are anti-women (while saying you're a feminist), you cannot expect to be clapped and indulged, or that people won't get irritated with you. Your CV is not relevant: we've all got them.

I think this needs to be said over and over again. @jenfwyou cannot make laws based on your mates or your childrens silblings. You need clear laws with clear workable definitions that everybody needs to stick too. Laws need to work for nice people and especially for not nice people.

Do you agree that women should have a right to a single sex rape support service?

I'm not even slightly embarrassed, but then, I'm not the one who's advocating for rapists in women's prisons because 'men will rape anyway' 'men are sad' and 'what about unicorns (sorry, people with both sets of genitals)'.

But you still think that women survivors of sexual abuse shouldn't have their own spaces? That men should be allowed in their toilets and changing rooms.

that's not the sort of feminism that works on this board.

In which case what 'division' are you talking about?

This is the SC judgment: single sex spaces and resources plus additional resources which may be gender neutral or more specific depending on need.
If you're for this, what's the lecturing all about?

I had a look at Amnesty's site to see what they were doing for women and girls in Afghanistan.

The irony of their Donate comment below after listening to Sascha today!

The speed with which the Taliban have dismantled the human rights of their population – especially for women and girls – is shocking. We must take action.

As a survivor myself, of course.

Do you know the case of Sarah Summers? She asked for a support group that was female sex only. Just one, next to the mixed sex, trans and men only.
She was denied group therapy.

I agree!

*jenfw

so hold on, are you actually agreeing that women should have single sex spaces? Or is it just rape refuges and prisons, but not toilets and changing rooms??

So you're in favour of single sex plus third spaces?

Great. So what are you complaining about?

That's not right. I will look it up. That certainly would not happen where I volunteer.

jen, so when you said ' I don't think these conversations really help anyone, just create more hate, misery and division.' you do actually agree with the premise that we're talking about here??

Have we been talking at cross purposes, in that case?

Are you also aware of the Greens councillor who wanted to withhold public funding to any female only shelter?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5294299-green-councillor-proposes-no-funding-for-womens-that-operate-under-the-sse-of-the-ea

This is the crap that women are dealing with all the time.

Yes, and women’s spaces are meant to feel like a safe escape from that male violence. Which they don’t anymore if a small number of transwomen or men willing to pretend to be transwomen use women’s spaces as a platform to abuse, harass, or just to make women feel uncomfortable. So having the right once again to insist that female prisons and rape crisis centres and changing rooms and hospital wards can be segregated by biological sex helps women retain those small places of sanctuary from male violence, which yes, is absolutely mostly coming from straight biological men who are not transwomen.

On the subject of the gay scene and gay men.......and I've had 'best gay male friends' and have been around the scene in earlier years - and I think gay men still remain very male in their outlook and approach, certainly when it comes to matters of sex and the body, and are not shy or backward in making comments about women's bodies or body parts....and that is before you get on to DRAG.

Gay men may appear to have sympathy with women, but when it comes down to it i think there is an inherent distance at the same time too......a distance which makes me very aware, for one, of my own sex based differences.

Gay men tend to be a lot more promiscuous than most women and have a certain quite detached attitude to sex. Gay men are just as fetishistic as men more generally, I find.