Today it's Amnesty Internation on Woman's Hour to discuss the Supreme Court judgment

[nauticant]

With Anita Rani. I am not expecting much in the way of challenges.

So what you're saying is that because if a man wants to attack women he will anyway...... and you're actually using this to justify why women shouldn't have single sex spaces?😂

If men want to attack, they will - and the kind that do this, from my experience, aren't going to go to the trouble (or humiliation) of wearing a dress.

such a tell.

Dressing as a woman is just the dregs, so humiliating for men, ugh.

Ah, right. I see you're a Troll.

You are confident in bars, clubs, gay clubs, around trans women etc. Great. Lucky you. You do realise that lots of women aren't? My adult daughters are both adopted. One has a moderate learning disability. She does not go to bars or clubs because of her vulnerability and she certainly wouldn't cope with encountering a trans woman in the ladies. She would be like the autistic girl banned by the FA for asking if there was a man there at best - at worst she would have a panic attack as her anxiety in public places is off the scale. Her sister is massively hypervigilant, avoids toilets and changing rooms as a result, but would have a panic attack if she encountered a male in the ladies.

You can't assume that since you are comfortable around people with a queer lifestyle that everyone else must be too. I

I know, the logic is so absent, it's rather breathtaking

Weirdly this episode is still not available to listen to wheras several later programs are. Hope it’s available to download for the school run.

I don't understand, are you saying men pretending to be trans identifying men wouldn't go a gay club so any trans identifying men you encounter in a gay club must be fine and dandy genuine? I don't think that's a thing.

No, I'm saying that a sample of men in a gay club isn't going to be representative sample of men generally. (Trans-identifying or not).

The vast majority of them would have been homosexual, therefore anecdotes about not never having had a problem with all those men don't carry much weight for the world outside gay clubs.

These days there no doubt would be a higher incidence of trans "lesbians" showing up in gay spaces, but 20-30 years ago, the vast majority of transsexuals in such places would have been interested in men. Straight transvestites were not part of the gay scene.

The trouble is, who defines a trans person? Excluding those who have the GRA certificate, there’s no definition. As Eddy Izzard demonstrates, one day you can portray as a man, the next as a lady. However, there was nothing stopping Eddie, or any other male, walking into a ladies toilet, woman’s refuge, gym woman’s communal changing rooms and saying he is entitled to use them.

I agree, most ‘genuine’ trans people do not pose a threat, but the pendulum has now swung too far and abusers are using the early transsexual privileges for their own misdeeds.

You have asked a woman. Me. I'm a straight woman. I have a friend who is a trans man who believes their should be spaces for both. I used to be against this but my children's half sibling, who was born a girl, now identifies as a trans man. She had contemplated killing herself. Living life as a trans person, from what I've seen, is hell, as there are very few people who accept you, and most want to actively harm you. I don't think these conversations really help anyone, just create more hate, misery and division.

Mmn.

Isn't that a bit: 'I've been out many a time in the dark, wearing a skirt, and I've never been raped, so rape is not really a thing and doesn't happen, and anyway there's probably reasons and when we wholly restructure society rape will be sorted. So we don't need to talk about it or have services or counsel women or anything.'

People with disorders of sexual development have a chromosomal condition.

And they are all, guess what, either male or female.

Why are you using such an out-of-date (and insulting) term? Do you call people with spasticity of the muscles 'spastics'? I hope not because that is also an out-of-date and insulting.

It is clear, however, that you do not understand DSD and are trying to use them as a 'gotcha'.

There is no such thing as intersex. It is an offensive, very very outdated and misleading term. All DSDs are sex specific and are variations along the male or female pathways. Tell us the DSD you are thinking of and we can tell you if it's male or female. You are probably thinking of Swyer syndrome. Those people do not have male and female organs. They are female, with XY chromosomes, because the Y chromosome doesn't work and karyotypes are not reproductive sex, precisely because variations like this occur. People with Swyer are built around the development of small gametes, are in the reproductive sex class capable of producing small gametes, even if they have a condition that means they do not produce those gametes. An infertile woman is a woman, not a man or a third sex.

Have you any idea how many people have done the "but intersex" and for how long? We debunked this 500000 times literally YEARS AND YEARS ago. It's starting to look like a deliberate time wasting exercise because nobody can still think this, surely.

I've got better things to do. One thing I do know that this thread is toxic af.Have a good day.

According to “my gay friend”, and shouldn’t need a gay to tell me this …. They are all different.
My friend doesn’t do gay pride, doesn’t gay club, doesn’t get involved in the “politics” he is not interested. He is just living his life. He has friends who are gay, friends who are not. He is not closeted, lives with long term partner, works.

He uses the term “ghetto” to refer to pride parade, the exclusively gay commmunity, gay rights, etc. He will say “that’s too ghetto” … he says some people just really involved in the “community” … it’s their whole existence. Live in gay ghetto area, go to only gay places, with gay friends …. He says it’s like old school “Chinatown” or “Little Italy” … he says I’m not stuck in the ghetto, wearing clothes from the old country, hanging out w people from the old country & only speaking the language. Some live in the ghetto …. Many don’t.

Yes. She obviously missed the sort of theme nights that students used to enjoy like Tarts and Vicars etc where the whole purpose seemed to be for girls to wear overtly sexy outfits and the boys to wear overtly sexy women’s outfits. Far more ‘tarts’ than vicars. See also stag dos.

If men want to attack, they will - and the kind that do this, from my experience, aren't going to go to the trouble (or humiliation) of wearing a dress.

There is no requirement for men who consider themselves trans to wear a dress. There is no requirement for them to make any changes to their appearance at all. All trans organisations said men should be able to access all women’s spaces if they wish. The man’s wishes were the only thing that mattered.

But as far as this ‘gotcha’ is concerned, I take it you never lock your front door and leave you keys on the dashboard of your car when you park up for the day because if someone is going to steal from you they will?

I wonder why men in a gay club wouldn't be bothering women. Total mystery, that.

I've seen horrendous things said about women on Facebook. Threats of violence, rpe, disgustingly misogynistic comments*.

So have I, here's a selection

I am blown away by the obvious that Amnesty, who were directly involved in the case, apparently hasn't read the judgment (or even the right judgment) and has wholly failed to understand it. And yet has gone to pontificate on radio.

Legitimacy and proportionality - yes, dealt with in the judgment. If you can be buggered to actually read it and have the capacity to comprehend it. Stonewall law for years: 'you have to define to the nth place the legitimacy and proportionality of saying no to this man in this situation (and nothing women say will ever be good enough'.

Actual law as clarified by the SC: if there is a reason to make it single sex rather than mixed sex in the first place it was proportionate and legitimate, and to then add ANY male makes it mixed sex and ends the single sexed provision. So either it's mixed sex or it isn't. No exceptions.

And Naomi Cunningham's comment from her stonking post this week: one man entering a women's space affects and impacts upon EVERY woman user or potential user, and there is no way that proportionally his interests can be seen to outweigh this.

I do not understand how people this depressingly either deluded or incompetent have managed to convince so many of this ridiculous misognistic bullshit. It's the greatest confidence trick since Barnum and Bailey.

I've got better things to do.

Well yes, that's abundantly obvious, but you aren't going to do any of them. That would involve doing some honest learning and accepting that women have rights.

So what happens to women’s righs in law to certain single sex spaces? We just give those up to allow some men access? How would the law cover allowing some men in to the loo? How could a group of 26 lesbians who are only interested in dating females be protected in law and allowed to meet without facing constant venue cancellations and harassment etc? What about women who want to guarantee no males in their DV shelter? Or severally handicapped women who want a guarantee of same sex intimate care? How do we protect those principles in law but still allow transwomen in female toilets?

And how transphobic of you to suggest that a male has to present as stereotypically female to be a transwoman! A transwoman is a woman just because they say they are and not because if what they look like or how they dress. So unfortunately no humiliation required to those nasty men whi don’t have to put on a dress to access our loos.

I am a disabled person, and I am very concerned with how disabled people are dehumanised. 'Intersex' might be popular with TRAs, but it is definitely a dehumanising term for many people who actually have these conditions, and they have asked for it not to be used.

Which developmental condition or conditions in particular are you referring to? There are many that could be classed under an "intersex" grouping. If you provide more detail then you'll probably get thoughtful responses, but your question as it stands is a bit vague.

Jen has anyone ever said to you that you cannot make laws, or bring in far reaching policies, affecting the entire population, based on your mates?

You do realise that women have different experiences from one another?

The woman at the centre of the Darlington nurses case for instance, was raped for six years by her own father. When she went to get changed in her changing room at work, there was a man getting changed down to his underpants, and she thought she was going to pass out from the fear. Especially as he kept asking her why she wasn't getting undressed.

This woman, in an effort to help justify the position of herself and other nurses has gone onto national media to talk about her terrible childhood sex abuse. Something even her own adult children knew nothing of.

The percentage of women who will suffer sex abuse at the hands of men is huge.

They should not have to have their trauma plastered all over the papers in order for people to understand this.

In order for people to understand that sometimes, when they're vulnerable, or disrobing, or throwing up with morning sickness, or washing out menstruation accidents from their clothes, they bloody well need a space which excludes men.

Irrespective of all the reasons why men think they shouldn't have it.

Drag your eyes off the men for one fucking second.