Today it's Amnesty Internation on Woman's Hour to discuss the Supreme Court judgment

[nauticant]

With Anita Rani. I am not expecting much in the way of challenges.

I wonder how you could tell?

Pray tell, how do we differentiate between these men and the genuine trans identifying men?

By them not being in gay clubs, perhaps?

I must say "as a woman I've never had a problem with the men in gay clubs" is one of the weaker arguments I've heard.

Not terribly clear how you extend that analysis to wider society for the vast majority of men.

Sometimes, I think that these 'scientific' T-shirts should become popular again. They were around a few years ago. This one feels right for this thread.

Maybe I should have a look at the back of the New Scientist to see if they are still advertised there?

I don’t think they ever published it, did they? Maybe that’s why.

I have also wondered whether we will start to see more division within the trans community with those ‘old skool’ transitioners seeking to separate themselves from modern, aggressive TRAs.

Buck Angel talks about this a lot. Buck transitioned about thirty years ago I think, knows what their biological sex is and acknowledges it. Buck uses the term ‘transsexual’ and rejects the term ‘transgender’. Buck often says that TRAs are ruining everything- for women, for gay and lesbian people and for transsexuals.

Tell what? That they were trans? By having conversations, generally treating trans people like they didn't have leprosy. My best friend (since aged 13, I'm now 42), is gay so have been on the scene for long time. His partner also used to do drag. Most toilets in gay bars / clubs etc. were mixed anyway, and I never once had a problem in years and years of being on the gay scene, which included mixing with a lot of trans men and women. I can't say the same about the straight scene. Harassed (verbally, physically) harassed by so many men , as have my friends when we have been out.

Your missing the point @jenfw it's not genuine trans people who want to go about their business that's the problem here
It's the men who identify as trans to gain access to women only spaces
Changing rooms. Rape crisis centres, sports teams. And use this to inflict SA and harassment against women and girls

What's a shame is that the trans community who were happily cracking on have now been infiltrated with men with lady dicks and men who are lesbians and the lesbians are terrible people if they don't suck a man's "lady dick" so therefore it's not the trans identifying people in the gay bar. It's the men in the brownie bunk we want out our spaces

So is the solution then to bar straight men from single sex spaces, but not gay ones? I wonder how easy that would be... much easier to simply ban men.

Exactly @Nomoreidea and if you can't tell which trans identifying men are the bad ones.

Best to exclude those men from women's only spaces 🤷‍♀️

Your missing the point it's not genuine trans people who want to go about their business that's the problem here

Yes they are a problem. I don’t care whether men genuinely feel they are what they imagine a woman is or not, they must stay out of female spaces.

Probably the smartest move they've made all year

@LesserCelandine I completely agree...think what I was trying to say is

Just stay out of our spaces 😅

Well, aren’t you the fortunate one eh…what about those women who have ?

But are they though? Do you have any stats on this? It's a non issue in my opinion. If men want to attack, they will - and the kind that do this, from my experience, aren't going to go to the trouble (or humiliation) of wearing a dress. This discourse is completely distracting from things that are an actual and ubiquitous threat, ie the incels, the Andrew Tate followers. I've seen horrendous things said about women on Facebook. Threats of violence, r*pe, disgustingly misogynistic comments. I've reported a tonne. None have ever been taken down. I've seen and heard boys my son's age (11), saying the most awful things about girls. My friend's daughter, who is 14, had a private Snapchat video of her (which she sent to a straight boy) passed around the whole of the high school. The real, credible, ubiquitous verifiable threat to women and girls is straight men who are not educated / taught to respect women and girls, usually down to historical, cyclical family attitudes / toxic masculinity. In addition to organisations being institutionally misogynist. Jesus, a serving police officer ended the life of an innocent woman walking home. Something is wrong when an organization that is supposed to represent the pinnacle of morality and law causes harm to women. It's 'not a few men wearing a dress' that is a threat to women and girls. It's the macro structure of society and how it embeds misogyny that is the real problem.

Over 70 % of “ Trans men” are straight….

Most trans women are straight men. Some are gay or bi or asexual but most are straight. And all are men.

It's great that no men identifying as women have ever harmed threatened you but they have absolutely harmed and threatened other women and they don't belong in the ladies for the same reason all other men don't belong there. They're not spaces for women and men without convictions. They're spaces for women. You might consent to them being mixed sex but you can't consent for other people. I consent to sex with my husband, doesn't mean you have to.

You should be fine with additional mixed sex spaces if your end game really is safe and appropriate spaces for all.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/amnesty-can-no-longer-claim-defend-human-rights-if-it-backs-decriminalising

Just putting this here, it's from a decade ago but is a reminder that Amnesty has been promoting men's interests over women's for a long time.

Yes @jenfw men are a threat to women
So keep them out of our spaces...yes?

And gay men tend to be misogynistic so I actually think your argument is nonsense

I don't understand, are you saying men pretending to be trans identifying men wouldn't go a gay club so any trans identifying men you encounter in a gay club must be fine and dandy genuine? I don't think that's a thing.

I wouldn't say so. Both me and my sister were sa'd by a male, elderly neighbor for years during our childhood. My Dad was physically abusive and drank. I hav been r*ped. I was in a relationship where my partner of four years tried to kill me by pushing me out of a moving vehicle. All the violence I have been subjected to was by straight men, with none of them ever wearing a dress.

The motivations of a transwoman wanting access to female single sec spaces is irrelevant. They are ALL men. We can’t start differentiating between the nice transwomen and any other male who claims to be trans. The law cannot differentiate between them either. @jenfw meeting men in gay clubs in the 80s is also irrelevant.

Toilets are being used as a distraction.
A transwoman cannot be Isla in the public toilets and Adam in prison. A person is either female for they are not. They are no degrees of being a female/woman.

The principle here is our rights to maintain our single sex spaces, services, facilties and sport.

You do realise, that statistically if a male prisoner identifies as trans, he's more likely to be a sex offender, than the general male prison population.

It's interesting, though. You want us to include gay men, men who identify as trans, but only the ones who are same-sex attracted? Not your trans lesbians? And who else? Maybe old men? Disabled men? Or maybe just weaker men in general?

Or perhaps we could have a sort of Myers Briggs version of likely sex offending? And if you pass, you get an all access ticket?

Or, and I know this is really fucking radical, and like totally out there, but bear with...

... we could just ask the bloody women? The women who don't want men in their spaces, irrespective of what they're wearing, how old they are, or whether or not you bloody like them.

Revolutionary, I know!

I was born in 1983 love. Not possible.

In addition, what is your stance on intersex people who have both sexual organs?