Today it's Amnesty Internation on Woman's Hour to discuss the Supreme Court judgment

[nauticant]

With Anita Rani. I am not expecting much in the way of challenges.

Precisely.

There are quite a few parents on here whose children do identify as trans.

Mumsnet has two specific boards dedicated to them.

People are not operating here from ignorance. Quite the opposite

And his daughter's clothes/underwear. So entitled was he, that he actually boasted about it to an audience

Thank you. I just also want to thank you for being respectful and helpful in your reply and, taking the time to read it. I'll take a look to see if I can find anything that may help my ex out.

Well, that was entirely predictable, always, always the hyperbole and the dramatic flounce.

Certainly does feel like a playground with your only response being name-calling. You seem rather taken aback that women don’t feel the need to be kind to men who are intend on harming and the destruction of women’s rights. Forthright women probably comes as a shock to women socialised to put men’s wants first.

Anyone who uses the word ‘women’ to describe a man is stealing women’s language.

I volunteer for a dv charity. I'm.an advocate for women's rights. I believe women's spaces should be protected. But after witnessing my ex's child, who I lived with for five years, come out as trans and all the pain and confusion it has caused, it has broadened my perspective.

I'm trans, and Mumsnet is a better place to be for me than trans circles. Here I don't have to lie about facts. I don't have to hide my truths about my trans identity. I don't have to pretend to believe in mass delusions and a strict dogma. Yes, it can be a harsh place to be because it's very blunt and forthright, but I far prefer this to soft lies.

The Tavistock referrals showed that most of the young people had co-existing issues like being in care, being adopted, having a parent in prison, having a sex offender parent, having autism or a learning disability....

Bad childhood experiences should not be used as a reason for transitioning. Instead, these sad, lonely, confused kids should be given psychological support and helped that way.

I'm sorry your step daughter has used being trans in this way. I am an adopter and I know several adopted teens who have chosen this route too. It's a warped coping strategy imo. Nothing to do with the older men and their autogynaphelia.

Do you recall the poster who attempted to use his GCSE or A level biology to argue with bowlofbabelfish about genetics?

A thing of beauty. Now missing in the great MN reorganisation. (Bowl was Nobel Prize adjacent as a genetics researcher. )

I am sorry that this young woman is struggling. She had a challenging childhood from your description. Perhaps her trans identity is a reaction to those challenges and the issues she currently faces rather that the cause of her challenges. We cannot however re-order society in the desperate hope that that will make this young person feel better about themselves….as that is almost certainly not going to help.

That comment was a reply to me, I’m still trying to work out the relevance of it being 10.15 at night, is there a curfew that I’ve missed? Are we only allowed to comment within a certain time frame now?! There was a similar post last week, I guess it’s all just about policing our behaviour, it’s so bloody boring, and, as you say, illogical!

It’s the same old tactic they‘ve been using for the past 10 years. Pretend transwomen and bio women are materially the same for all purposes, and stamp out bio women’s specific rights by diluting them to work for men while simultaneously claiming separate trans rights, days of celebration, charity fundraising, etc.

It’s so blatant. I simply don’t believe trans allies aren’t aware of it by now.

Quite @RayonSunrise

Jen, you must know that coming out as trans isn't a process of self actualisation, but a reaction to circumstances.

There's no such thing as being born in the wrong body. It doesn't exist.

And identifying as the opposite sex is a solution to a myriad of issues.

Past sexual trauma, confusion through being neurodivergent, being same-sex attracted and feeling uncomfortable with it, a reaction maybe to very strong stereotyping as a child, etc.

It isn't a thing by itself, it's a solution to something else.

i'm not saying it wouldn't sometimes work. But as the person will be forever battling against reality, it's probably not a long-term solution.

But from a feminist point of view, the thing to do is to address the underlying issue, not 'being trans' as a solution to it.

Addressing the issue of past sexual trauma, or strict stereotyping, or homophobia, internal or external, etc.

This is why you will see push back on here against the very concept of being transgender.

They flounced off yesterday and said several times they weren’t coming back, but here they are again.

Great post

I suppose what many of these children and their parents are looking for is an answer. Sometimes in desperation any answer - do something Mutley, my child is unhappy.

Objectively, we can look at the data and understand the links with autism and CSA. We can also see the harms caused by delaying puberty and moving onto cross-sex hormones. But I do understand that if you have an unhappy child, an explanation - however wrong - might bring temporary relief. Treatment may lead to short term euphoria, even if affects mortality and morbidity later on. So I can see why scared parents are so susceptible to the messaging around suicide ideology. The sane advice from Cass about watchful waiting won’t seem enough - they want intervention and they want it now. And look how much happier my child is at this moment in time. I was right to do this.

But of course that treatment is almost always never enough. Once the initial high has waned, it’s common to seek further treatment in a vain attempt to become the thing they can never be. It can set up a cycle of wanting more and more extreme treatment, whilst not addressing the real, underlying cause of the unhappiness. And that’s when I fear for these people the most.

I've cancelled my Amnesty monthly donation after listening to that misogynistic shite from their representative.

That is beautiful. I have to confess this post made my day!

But it's very clear, even without this background information, that some women on FWR really know their shit when it comes to science. I'm not one of them unfortunately.

@jenfw the problem is that you can say until you're blue in the face "I have empathy for transgender people but womens spaces must be protected" and you'll be met with abuse and silencing. It's frustrating.

Thank you for the reminder. I went back via advanced search to bowlofbabelfish's posts. She stopped posting, at least under that name, in 2019, but what a lot of useful stuff.

So many accomplished women generously taking time and effort to share their knowledge and expertise, and trying to help.

Then I went back further to see for how long women have been stating the blindingly obvious. It is a looong time.

Another flounce?

Byeee….again

Amnesty Int. support full decriminalisation of sex work?

Yes they do and you can add The WHO, Human Rights Watch, Anti-Slavery Int, Global Alliance against Traffic in Women, UNAIDS, Freedom Utd, Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women, HIV Scotland, STOPAIDS, the Royal College of Nurses and sex worker orgs amongst others.

In 2022, Belgium passed decriminalisation becoming the first European country to do so.

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

That is utterly appalling - truly stomach-churning. There really are no depths to which they won't sink. 😡