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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
MarieDeGournay · 15/05/2025 09:38

It's refreshing that the OP admits that the first post was a cunning plan to get hate-filled responses from bigoted transphobic GC women to bring back to Reddit to tut-tut over.

Epic fail, OP:
Instead, you got a succession of posts pointing out that 'man acts aggressively towards woman' is hardly 'hold the front page' material, and that it should never have happened to Caz, or to any other woman.

If you add in '..towards a woman who clearly is a woman, who was supported by the women around her, and even the wife of the aggressor stepped in to end the aggression' it makes it even less of a 'hold the front page' story.

So you have nothing much to tut-tut over, have you, apart from man being aggressive to a woman, woman being supported by other women.

But I'd love to know if you've challenged Caz - who you apparently know because you say you have her permission to repeat her narrative - about
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them.

Don't you wonder how somebody with such strong views on gender non-conformity could be so offensive towards people because of their age? Have you had a word with Caz about ageism?

Isn't that what friends do - point out when someone is themselves look a bit foolish by describing at great length and in great detail unfairness they have experienced, and then casually dishing it out to another group?

illinivich · 15/05/2025 09:38

The whole thing, the 'bathroom' scenario and the test of the op, can only make sense to TW.

Its assuming we can simultaneously identify sex and not - caz was miss sexed but was confident that the aggressor was male? A cis man?

The moral of the tale is that no one should be questioned in the women's toilets. And TW need access to the toilets, in part to avoid men. But no one can challenge any percieved man in the womens toilets?

No one but TW can make any sense of this.

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 09:39

Coatsoff42 · 15/05/2025 09:03

Man bullies woman. Again.

How is this the problem for women who want to protect themselves from bullying men? This is a moment in time for men to look at themselves and their attitudes, to rethink how their behaviour is making other men afraid to even go for a wee.
How are there not huge outpourings of acceptance from men, accepting gender expressions in all their many forms? Welcoming the array and diversity of male humanity into their spaces?

awfully quiet on this.

Good point. This was the time for the men in the queue to step in, but Caz doesn't mention the men.
She does mention the women stepping in to console her afterwards and the woman who had to step in to stop her own husband making even more of an arse of himself.

Inertia · 15/05/2025 09:39

Is the word ‘forum’ using they/them pronouns now?

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 09:39

TheTallgiraffe · 15/05/2025 09:36

Toilets, not bathrooms. I don't think they have public bathrooms at the Festival Hall

Normally a sign of American TRAs

GoFaster83 · 15/05/2025 09:40

PronounssheRa · 15/05/2025 07:02

Caz is unmistakably female
Women aren't responsible for what a random man does
If men hadn't started trampling over womens boundaries in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue now.

And neither was she. And yet here we are.

Arran2024 · 15/05/2025 09:41

Life isn't always fair or reasonable.

Sometimes people are horrible, make mistakes, embarrass themselves and others.

One swallow does not make a summer.

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 09:41

CantStopMoving · 15/05/2025 09:13

I only found out recently that women have a much stronger innate sexing ability than men. I had no idea this was the case but it does sound reasonable evolutionary wise and it does explain why so many men are adamant you can’t tell that aren’t female whereas the women are screaming you are clearly male.

Maybe it has something to do with the greater male tendency to objectification; to being object oriented, rather than relationship oriented?

Males also have far greater tendency to fetishism and various paraphilias because their sexuality is stimulated more by objects and symbols of objects. So, for example, breasts are objectified....and become symbols of 'womanhood'.

The suggestion of " get tits first " ( was that Paris Leese?) most likely arises from this tendency. To a male perception "having tits" means you are female. Having long hair means you are female. Wearing high heels means you are female. And that you look female too.

Whereas women tend, more generally ( unless autistic, maybe) to be relationship oriented.... people are not reduced to their body parts or presentations so much.....and people are perceived in a more holistic way.

Lwreninem · 15/05/2025 09:43

My best friend is a very masculine looking lesbian. I do worry about women who don’t fit into the stereotype of how a woman looks being bullied. Especially my bf, she’s so shy she’d be distraught.

I obviously don’t want to have women (or any person) uncomfortable in any bathroom but I worry hugely for the opportunity to humiliate women.

In 2025 I have to admit I didn’t think worrying about people using toilets to be such a massive problem as it is but we do need safer places and spaces for everyone. More unisex spaces as well as men/women only. I don’t care if people don’t like that. It’s the only way to keep everyone safe.

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 09:43

@BisiBodi I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them.

OP please encourage Caz to come here to try to correct our misunderstanding. She will be welcome if she treats us with respect and uses facts and logical reasoning. Ask her to explain to us why we should accept males in female spaces

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 09:45

LizzieSiddal · 15/05/2025 06:47

Caz is very clearly a woman, she looks like a woman and every woman around her in the queue knew she was a woman and supported her. She handled it well.
I’m not sure what she’s complaining about.

Yes. If, If this happened - and I'm beginning to have my doubts due to the cult terminology she used, and the fact it suits the trans ideology to 'set up' or invent situations like this to make women look bad (same as the one in NYC spent a lot of time talking about sharing tampons, I mean, what woman would think to even say that?) - she should be grateful a male is looking out for women and protecting them from men. Naahhh, something stinks. IF this even happened. It sounds like it was made up to me.

Rhubarbandfennel · 15/05/2025 09:45

CantStopMoving · 15/05/2025 09:13

I only found out recently that women have a much stronger innate sexing ability than men. I had no idea this was the case but it does sound reasonable evolutionary wise and it does explain why so many men are adamant you can’t tell that aren’t female whereas the women are screaming you are clearly male.

Yes I recently realised this myself too. I was with a male companion in a theatre cafe, my companion was carrying drinks back to our table which was made difficult by a person sitting awkwardly, in the way, their legs in the aisle with a lack of consideration for others. Male companion said to me 'why is that woman getting in the way like that'. I glanced up and within
micro seconds could see that the person, despite superficial appearances, was not born female. Male friend was completely oblivious to what was really obvious to me.

Gloriia · 15/05/2025 09:46

She looks like a woman. It's the 6 foot men in heels and miniskirts that will be challenged.

Many women have short hair and wear hoodies.

Your friend encountered a horrible man, but do tell her not to suggest 'showing her tits' if there's a next time as it is obviously a cringeworthy response. Her voice and looks would have been sufficient.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 09:46

GoFaster83 · 15/05/2025 09:40

And neither was she. And yet here we are.

She wasn't responsible for this man's behaviour, if this incident did in fact happen.

She is responsible for the fact that she is blaming the wrong people, and being offensive and prejudiced against other women based on their protected characteristics.

Ddakji · 15/05/2025 09:46

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:43

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality.

Whilst it's true that the thread has, as I predicted it probably would, descended to the standard that this sub-fora of MN is infamous for, I'm not especially concerned. I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do.

Which is what? To point out that male aggression is not the fault of women? Specifically the women of Mumsnet? Specially the women who support the Equality Act?

Can you be more specific about what your intent was?

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 09:46

Females have female only spaces
Only females use female only spaces, all females happy
Males start invading female only spaces.
Males challenges female user of female only space accusing her of being one of the males invading that space

And somehow we are meant to think this is the fault of females going to court to declare it is a female only space?

OuterSpaceCadet · 15/05/2025 09:47

Would you like us to make you a sandwich whilst we solve the problem of violent males for you?

Not sure letting men in the ladies is quite the solution you think it is though.

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 09:47

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 09:43

@BisiBodi I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them.

OP please encourage Caz to come here to try to correct our misunderstanding. She will be welcome if she treats us with respect and uses facts and logical reasoning. Ask her to explain to us why we should accept males in female spaces

older cis community

I missed that. So she's ageist as well as misogynist and thinks women can be boxed into 'cis'. Not just 'cis' but cis community.

The more I think about this, the more I believe it didn't happen. It's a story by a trans activist.

Lemonz · 15/05/2025 09:48

Normally I'd report these kinds of threads as trolling. Obviously it is trolling as OP had no desire to engage in a conversation and is simply posting bait for his own gratification/screenshots.

But the replies are good for lurkers.

OP, you should get a better hobby.

OuterSpaceCadet · 15/05/2025 09:51

Is it a humiliation kink?

I'd really appreciate some better arguments tbh.

SinKlaire · 15/05/2025 09:51

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 09:38

Nope, that man was standing up for women. Too few men would have the guts to call out (in this case, he was wrong though) men. I thank him for defending women. He is a hero in my book.

💯

We need more men doing this, real women are happy to correct them if they are wrong and this will mean that toilets are now safe for women and girls.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 09:52

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 09:47

older cis community

I missed that. So she's ageist as well as misogynist and thinks women can be boxed into 'cis'. Not just 'cis' but cis community.

The more I think about this, the more I believe it didn't happen. It's a story by a trans activist.

Caz is pretty but she has quite a lot of grey hair. Who is she calling "older" exactly? She looks like she might be older than me.

Stepfordian · 15/05/2025 09:53

If men hadn’t been invading women’s spaces in the first place this wouldn’t happen, men have caused people to be concerned and more alert to men trying to go in women’s single sex spaces. The photo shows a woman, no one could suspect she was male, the man was out of order, the world is full of people who are but no harm was cause, only some offence, I’d prefer that to women actually being harmed.

DragonRunor · 15/05/2025 09:56

@BisiBodi perhaps you need to read the post more carefully. Caz was clear that she didn’t mind being challenged about her sex, but was upset about the aggressive way that a man chose to do it

So the story here is that some men sometimes get aggressive, and the implied solution is to talk to trainwomen and make sure they feel comfortable in women-only spaces

I'm not finding that a convincing argument - maybe you can explain why you think I should?

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 09:57

So Caz supports an ideology that ignores sex and states you are a gender based on the way you dress and how you style your hair (or wig) and that you should be able to use ‘bathrooms’ based on your clothes, hairstyle and use of makeup. Then gets upset when a man decides she shouldn’t be using the female ‘bathroom’ based on the only criteria she believes are relevant?