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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
TY78910 · 15/05/2025 09:15

obviously his behaviour is out of line, no man should be shouting, grabbing a shoulder of anyone. And I say anyone because if Caz did turn out to be male, would his behaviour still be warranted? Guess the questioning part yes, not so much the physical and the shouting - should apply some tact.

But could he just be projecting an experience that his wife might have had previously? Or just generally didn’t want to see a male in a female toilet? Does this have to be directly linked with the SC ruling and the conclusion being that because of what’s happened it’s fuelled wrong behaviour?

Caz is clearly a woman from the picture of her smiling and a close up of her face, but I am assuming this may have not been immediately obvious from the back of the queue.

Heylittlesongbird · 15/05/2025 09:16

In this anecdote a man behaved badly to a woman.

All of the women behaved well and gave support to the woman he behaved badly to.

Im not sure what lesson I am supposed to be taking on board other than some men behave badly to women, which (being a woman) I already knew.

CatietteX · 15/05/2025 09:16

In response to @BisiBodi at 8.43am.

I’m confused. You said the thread was for “open discussion” not “judgment”, but 1) haven’t engaged with subsequent comments to encourage discussion, 2) appear to denigrate such comments.

Could you clarify, in the light of this, what it actually was “intended to do”?

My own reading is that it’s been very valuable in exposing cynical attempts to conflate GC feminism, which opposes gendered stereotypes, with 1) male aggression & 2) right-wing traditionalism, while instead clarifying for any lurkers: 1) how flawed such claims are, 2) how easily they can be dismissed, 3) GC feminists’ capacity for calm, rational debate, & 4) ??? a lack of clarity re: the opposing side’s intentions & arguments??? (currently leading to 5) the likelihood, in the absence of such clarity from “other side”, that it, in this thread at least, is proportionately lacking in rigour & good faith).

SalfordQuays · 15/05/2025 09:18

OP firstly there’s no such thing as a cis woman. There are women and trans women.

If this actually happened, it’s just an example of a man being a twat to a woman. Happens every day sadly. And if he felt emboldened by the SC ruling, well that’s unfortunate, but I think the occasional negative outcome of the ruling will be cancelled out by the many positive ones.

RedToothBrush · 15/05/2025 09:19

proximalhumerous · 15/05/2025 09:10

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

How deeply patronising.

Na.

How very 1984.

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command

Funny isn't it? Being asked to reread something in that fashion until you get the 'correct' meaning.

"If the universe exists only in the mind, and the Party controls the mind, then the Party controls the universe."

Hmmm. Sex isn't real. Philosophical beliefs are. Hmmm.

Cognacsoft · 15/05/2025 09:20

Proving once again the problem is always a bloody man.

PsychoHotSauce · 15/05/2025 09:20

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:48

Or...and hear me out for a minute...it might just all be made up.

I get the feeling the OP is also a biological man. The dictating opener, ordering us what we're allowed to discuss or not discuss, demanding we read the sentence again. Shudder.

PriOn1 · 15/05/2025 09:22

Great. Another of these boring transactivists pretending that somehow, things are now worse for women because we got our rights back.

I don’t honestly care that there are female transactivists who are so desperate to pander to men that they will try any old shit to keep them in our spaces.

And of course, if the men hadn’t entered our spaces illegally and lied to us over years claiming we couldn’t chuck them out, then there would be no Supreme Court ruling.

None of this is the fault of women, or the Supreme Court. If you want to moan about women being treated worse, then go whinge to the men who are at fault and the idiot women who encouraged them.

Serencwtch · 15/05/2025 09:26

You & your friend need to direct your anger towards the trans identifying males who insist on forcing themselves into women's spaces as that's what's caused this problem.

Im guessing the man was homophobic & misogynistic & had an issue with how your friend dressed etc rather than he genuinely thought she was a male. That's a man problem not a supreme Court problem.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 09:27

PriOn1 · 15/05/2025 09:22

Great. Another of these boring transactivists pretending that somehow, things are now worse for women because we got our rights back.

I don’t honestly care that there are female transactivists who are so desperate to pander to men that they will try any old shit to keep them in our spaces.

And of course, if the men hadn’t entered our spaces illegally and lied to us over years claiming we couldn’t chuck them out, then there would be no Supreme Court ruling.

None of this is the fault of women, or the Supreme Court. If you want to moan about women being treated worse, then go whinge to the men who are at fault and the idiot women who encouraged them.

I think my absolute favourite of the batshit claims we have seen since the Supreme Court judgment is that it will now be easier for "cis men" to access women's single sex spaces by pretending to be trans men.

As if it wasn't much, much easier for a "cis man" to pretend to be a trans woman than to pretend to be a trans man.

caramac04 · 15/05/2025 09:29

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/05/2025 06:52

1: ‘Cis’ is a stupid concept which assumes that everyone has a gender identity.

2: It’s obviously ridiculous to think that woman is a man.

3: The ‘disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society’ would be the men who insist they’re still going to use women’s toilets.

I agree with this.
Also, as others have said, the woman in the photograph is clearly a woman.

UpsideDownChairs · 15/05/2025 09:29

Number 1 - according to doctrine. Cis means 'gender aligns with sex'. Gender obviously has different interpretations, but generally we mean our likes and dislikes, fashion sense etc. - ie stereotypically feminine or masculine behaviour and choices (note that I don't agree with such a thing, I think 80% of it is socially imposed). By this definition, the woman pictured is not cis - she is clearly gender-non-conforming (which is absolutely normal)

Number 2 - is it your contention that it's better to let anyone into the women's toilet without challenge (ie. have entirely mixed sex toilets)? That a man is only going to be aggressive in the queue, and not once he's sharing the toilets with you?

Number 3 - this isn't a problem caused by the clarification of existing law. This is a problem caused by so many men feeling emboldened to go into the ladies, and since the judgement, people are finally confident enough to (sometimes) call it out. Frankly, if she had been a 6' transwoman I doubt the bloke would have done the same thing, because we all naturally stand back from people who are obviously boundary breakers, especially if they're bigger than us.

andtheworldrollson · 15/05/2025 09:30

so this is blaming us for a man attacking a woman in the US?

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 09:31

Sorry, 'cis' woman and even 'cis community' eradicates ANY sympathy I might have felt for her. She DEHUMANISES women when she speaks with such hateful misogynistic terms.

And, she ignores the fact that if males weren't using female only spaces, in the first place, people wouldn't be on high alert. Soooo.... the people she should be blaming are the males who have used female only spaces CAUSING this high alert. Not the 'cis' community. She has missed the point and is blaming the wrong people and not looking at where the problem lies.

I am also very thankful to that male for standing up for women (rarely is it males calling out other males going into the womens) an calling it out, even if he was wrong on this occasion. I hope it doesn't stop him from doing it in the future (but he should see the face first). He should actually be praised and thanked, not attacked. He got it wrong on this occasion, but his heart was in the right place. I am thankful for men like that on our side.

RedToothBrush · 15/05/2025 09:32

andtheworldrollson · 15/05/2025 09:30

so this is blaming us for a man attacking a woman in the US?

Yep.

Profound logical thinking.

I'm in awe.

SparklyPinkHairband · 15/05/2025 09:32

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:43

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality.

Whilst it's true that the thread has, as I predicted it probably would, descended to the standard that this sub-fora of MN is infamous for, I'm not especially concerned. I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do.

"has done what it was intended to do."

Not genuine thread. Reported.

RegimentalSturgeon · 15/05/2025 09:32

We don’t say ‘bathrooms’ when we mean a public loo/the ladies/ the bog, OP, we don’t use ‘sub-fora’ in the singular and -speaking purely for myself, you understand - I don’t believe a bloody word of it.
Transparent? I could use you as a greenhouse.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 09:32

andtheworldrollson · 15/05/2025 09:30

so this is blaming us for a man attacking a woman in the US?

This allegedly happened in London.

sevilleorangemarmalade · 15/05/2025 09:32

No time to read the full thread, but having read the OP (do you think you have control issues, OP?) I feel the need to quote the First Rule of Misogyny.

Women are responsible for everything that men do.

So an aggressive and probably mentally unwell man with an agenda 'mistook' a woman for a man as she queued to use the Ladies loo. That is not women's fault and it doesn't mean that women should give in and let men use their single-sex facilities. It does not mean the Supreme Court ruling was wrong. I'm a lesbian, some of my friends are extremely butch-looking and very rarely are even the 6-foot-tall dykes dressed in men's clothing actually mistaken for men.

You need to work at your thinking, @BisiBodi.

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 09:34

The title of this thread screams ‘look what you made me do!’

Women saying ‘no’ are not responsible for male violence.

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 09:36

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 09:34

The title of this thread screams ‘look what you made me do!’

Women saying ‘no’ are not responsible for male violence.

The title of this thread screams ‘look what you made me do!’

Exactly. It's typical misogyny and victim-blaming.

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 09:36

LonginesPrime · 15/05/2025 08:58

I actually think it was a great way to handle it.

I know Caz says she was on the back foot and felt she didn’t handle it the way she might have wanted to if it hadn’t happened so quickly, but I’m glad she said what she did - I don’t think I’d have been as quick-thinking in the moment.

People can be arseholes, and it sounds like he was bored waiting for his wife so scanning the toilet door for her to emerge, then saw something he thought looked out of place, as men do tend to reduce women to their clothes and haircuts rather than viewing them as human beings.

I agree that she handled it well. I'm a petite woman and well....a woman. So in the past if I've experienced aggression from a man I've opted for either shock factor or humour, or both.

TheTallgiraffe · 15/05/2025 09:36

Toilets, not bathrooms. I don't think they have public bathrooms at the Festival Hall

bumblingbovine49 · 15/05/2025 09:36

That man behaved like an an arse. It is not up to him to police the female toilets. If the women in the queue were happy, what right did he have to interfere? That is the point of female spaces, we don't want males in them. We don't need them to 'help' us in them unless we specifically ask for help. I can't imagine any woman would shout at someone in a queue for the men's toilet (not that there ever are queues) because they thought they were a woman!!.

We don't concern ourselves with what males choose to do in their spaces and how they police them and we would prefer it if they did not concern themselves with what we do in ours, and that includes the males who 'present' as women (whatever that means!)

This story is not about trans issues, it is about male agression and male incursion on female spaces. I am sorry that Caz had to put up with that horrible aggressive male but females have had to do that for time immemorial. It is part and parcel of being a woman unfortunately and exactly the reason we want single sex spaces so that women can support each other to help deal with this - as happened in this case.

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 09:38

bumblingbovine49 · 15/05/2025 09:36

That man behaved like an an arse. It is not up to him to police the female toilets. If the women in the queue were happy, what right did he have to interfere? That is the point of female spaces, we don't want males in them. We don't need them to 'help' us in them unless we specifically ask for help. I can't imagine any woman would shout at someone in a queue for the men's toilet (not that there ever are queues) because they thought they were a woman!!.

We don't concern ourselves with what males choose to do in their spaces and how they police them and we would prefer it if they did not concern themselves with what we do in ours, and that includes the males who 'present' as women (whatever that means!)

This story is not about trans issues, it is about male agression and male incursion on female spaces. I am sorry that Caz had to put up with that horrible aggressive male but females have had to do that for time immemorial. It is part and parcel of being a woman unfortunately and exactly the reason we want single sex spaces so that women can support each other to help deal with this - as happened in this case.

Nope, that man was standing up for women. Too few men would have the guts to call out (in this case, he was wrong though) men. I thank him for defending women. He is a hero in my book.