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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
GargoylesofBeelzebub · 15/05/2025 08:53

I'll take minor embarrassment over the sexual assault of young girls like this thanks. All decent people would. What is it that's wrong with you that you'd prioritise adult feelings over young girls safety ?

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/14674350/trans-paedo-supermarket-toilet-ruling/

RoseRedorDead · 15/05/2025 08:54

Caz is a good looking woman! And very obviously a woman. I call Bs. Also, don't use the word cis. I find it incredibly offensive to be called that, as do many women on here. Please mind your language.

Beveren · 15/05/2025 08:54

LizzieSiddal · 15/05/2025 06:47

Caz is very clearly a woman, she looks like a woman and every woman around her in the queue knew she was a woman and supported her. She handled it well.
I’m not sure what she’s complaining about.

How can you not be sure? If some stranger came up to you in a public place and behaved like that, don't you think you would have cause for complaint?

Why does the fact she looks like a woman make it all OK? If she looked more masculine, would it still be OK to treat her like that?

MollyRedSkirtsChandler · 15/05/2025 08:55

A (very) similar story has been doing the rounds on FB - I've seen it posted three times at least in the last week with reference to the nasty TERFS being to blame.

Apparently no awareness at all that male aggression is kind of the point...

mummytoonetryingfortwo · 15/05/2025 08:55

Beveren · 15/05/2025 08:54

How can you not be sure? If some stranger came up to you in a public place and behaved like that, don't you think you would have cause for complaint?

Why does the fact she looks like a woman make it all OK? If she looked more masculine, would it still be OK to treat her like that?

Edited

The thing is, Bev, this didn’t happen.

Alucard55 · 15/05/2025 08:55

If this did happen then what is your point?

Because a biological man was an arse to a very pretty woman with short hair we should then let all biological men into women's single sex spaces?

I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them.

As many pp have pointed out we are not frightened or naive about trans people. We understand very well and have came to the conclusion that we do not want biological men however they present, identify and regardless of what pieces of paper they have in our female only spaces.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

DragonRunor · 15/05/2025 08:56

As a short-haired woman, I’d rather be questioned about my sex multiple times than sexually assaulted once

RoyalCorgi · 15/05/2025 08:57

What an utterly contemptible attempt at blaming women for male aggression.

We get it, OP. Women aren't allowed to have their own spaces, or anything at all of their own. Everything they do must be in the service of men's interests.

LonginesPrime · 15/05/2025 08:58

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:46

Fair points, and obviously this was not my experience and I only have the details Caz has made public to go on.

As to the offer to bear all, my assumption - and it is just an assumption - is she might have been so shocked by the encounter that a streak of angry defiance kicked in and she made a suggestion that - in the cold light of calm - would never have been made.

I actually think it was a great way to handle it.

I know Caz says she was on the back foot and felt she didn’t handle it the way she might have wanted to if it hadn’t happened so quickly, but I’m glad she said what she did - I don’t think I’d have been as quick-thinking in the moment.

People can be arseholes, and it sounds like he was bored waiting for his wife so scanning the toilet door for her to emerge, then saw something he thought looked out of place, as men do tend to reduce women to their clothes and haircuts rather than viewing them as human beings.

DustyWindowsills · 15/05/2025 08:59

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:43

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality.

Whilst it's true that the thread has, as I predicted it probably would, descended to the standard that this sub-fora of MN is infamous for, I'm not especially concerned. I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do.

So ... Your intention was to elicit a great big collective shrug from a bunch of women who are way more relaxed about gender norms than you apparently are? 🤷🏻 OK, if you say so.

illinivich · 15/05/2025 09:00

Beveren · 15/05/2025 08:54

How can you not be sure? If some stranger came up to you in a public place and behaved like that, don't you think you would have cause for complaint?

Why does the fact she looks like a woman make it all OK? If she looked more masculine, would it still be OK to treat her like that?

Edited

No one is saying that she should have to take this abuse.

Its just odd that anyone could mistake her, given how female she looks, for a man in the first place.

Its also odd how these agressive men always target women who call themselves cis women?

Coatsoff42 · 15/05/2025 09:03

Man bullies woman. Again.

How is this the problem for women who want to protect themselves from bullying men? This is a moment in time for men to look at themselves and their attitudes, to rethink how their behaviour is making other men afraid to even go for a wee.
How are there not huge outpourings of acceptance from men, accepting gender expressions in all their many forms? Welcoming the array and diversity of male humanity into their spaces?

awfully quiet on this.

LivelyFinch · 15/05/2025 09:05

The friend I mentioned in an earlier post is happy for other women to share with trans women as they are no threat apparently and it makes it easier for her to use womens facilities without being challenged.

She's heterosexual and only has sex with gay men which is also a nonsense and insulting to gay men. She still looks like a woman just with short hair and no breasts as she binds them.

The mental gymnastics are off the scale but it all comes down to pandering to men and she just can't see it.

RareGoalsVerge · 15/05/2025 09:07

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:43

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality.

Whilst it's true that the thread has, as I predicted it probably would, descended to the standard that this sub-fora of MN is infamous for, I'm not especially concerned. I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do.

So everyone saying "but she doesn't look remotely like a man, and anyway the problem was the aggressive man, not women" was exactly what you expected? How is that a "descent"?

Would nice kind and compliant women have instead responded "oh my goodness, how terrible. Henceforth all women's spaces must be entirely open to any male who wants to access them, and yet still somehow be considered 'women's spaces' rather than unisex, because otherwise someone might be sad. Our own sadness at women's spaces no longer existing is of course irrelevant, for we are only women"?

RedToothBrush · 15/05/2025 09:08

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:43

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality.

Whilst it's true that the thread has, as I predicted it probably would, descended to the standard that this sub-fora of MN is infamous for, I'm not especially concerned. I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do.

Yes your intention was to scold MN.

Would you like a gold star?

CantStopMoving · 15/05/2025 09:09

DragonRunor · 15/05/2025 08:56

As a short-haired woman, I’d rather be questioned about my sex multiple times than sexually assaulted once

Brilliantly put.

and let’s face it - we aren’t all perfect. Someone could conceivably make an error and in most normal situations the person making the error would likely be hugely embarrassed when it turned out they were wrong

I am sure you would just shrug it off . I still think that these sort of errors though are exceedingly rare. My lovely friend went through horrific cancer treatment and lost all their hair completely but they were unmissable still a gorgeous lady and no one ever questioned them in the loos as to being a man.

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 09:10

Caz very much looks female to me. And that is the madness of trans ideology...because it has solidified the idea that there are right ways to dress or have your hair depending on whether you are male or female.

I have short hair and have had for most of my adult life, and can't say i've ever been questioned about my sex whilst using public facilities I was once, when aged 10, also with short hair....a couple of boys, on first impression, took me to be male...and I went along with it...thinking it an interesting experience.

Men maybe try to police things more so than women......and this generalised tendency to impose is why males in women's spaces just can't work.

I'm sure there will be some unpleasant incidents whilst everything settles into its new position......though going forward there will most likely be more unisex facilities, alongside the single sex ones, for anyone who feels more comfortable with them. Gradually everything will calm down.

There has been obvious backlash against the impositions of trans ideology - for the reason it was so repressive and totalitarian in nature. I think most of the madness has peaked now, though.

proximalhumerous · 15/05/2025 09:10

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

How deeply patronising.

Rhubarbandfennel · 15/05/2025 09:11

I've had a similar haircut for about 4 decades; there's always been odd occasions when men (never women as far as I recall) are mistaken about my sex. Just another example of how restrictive gender stereotypes are.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 09:12

LivelyFinch · 15/05/2025 09:05

The friend I mentioned in an earlier post is happy for other women to share with trans women as they are no threat apparently and it makes it easier for her to use womens facilities without being challenged.

She's heterosexual and only has sex with gay men which is also a nonsense and insulting to gay men. She still looks like a woman just with short hair and no breasts as she binds them.

The mental gymnastics are off the scale but it all comes down to pandering to men and she just can't see it.

I would suggest it’s all in her imagination. Women probably don’t give her a second thought when she is in public toilets or any other woman only space…but she has convinced herself that it’s because of the presence of TW. If only she could think about the issue logically.

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 09:12

There is no 'cis' community. We are all individuals and are diverse. But we are all either male or female.

You can't blame the ruling...it was just about bringing clarity. and with clarity comes greater consciousness.

CantStopMoving · 15/05/2025 09:13

Rhubarbandfennel · 15/05/2025 09:11

I've had a similar haircut for about 4 decades; there's always been odd occasions when men (never women as far as I recall) are mistaken about my sex. Just another example of how restrictive gender stereotypes are.

I only found out recently that women have a much stronger innate sexing ability than men. I had no idea this was the case but it does sound reasonable evolutionary wise and it does explain why so many men are adamant you can’t tell that aren’t female whereas the women are screaming you are clearly male.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 09:14

LivelyFinch · 15/05/2025 08:48

Yes! Ridiculous isn't it?

I would not be able to restrain myself from asking her whether she thinks Katie Dolatowski's 10 and 12 year old victims are acceptable collateral damage for her to be able to continue to use women's toilets whilst pretending not to be a woman.

I mean, the reality is that everyone will be able to see that she is a woman and so she can continue to use women's toilets in perfect safety even if trans women must use the men's.

Mmmnotsure · 15/05/2025 09:14

LittleBitofBread · 15/05/2025 08:47

Exactly what I thought! The writing generally is not exactly great, is it. And certainly not convincing.

OP, this didn't happen. And saying 'cis woman' was an entry-level mistake and giveaway.

See also, 'bathroom'

FumingTRex · 15/05/2025 09:15

None of us on here are responsible for this nan’s behaviour. Maybe he’s just an arsehole. Maybe his wife was assaulted in some public toilets and he was triggered by someone he wrongly thought was male.