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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
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7
Sortumn · 15/05/2025 08:06

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:03

Remember that people work. Its 8am. Lots of people start work now. I'm.due to start in 15.

Probably felt a bit of a fool by that point.
He had two options. Try to bluff his way out, or apologise. He went with the first.

Shodan · 15/05/2025 08:07

If men had just 'stayed in their lane' in the first place this would never have happened- everyone would have known her to be a woman by the mere fact that she was in the queue for the Ladies. But no- some men were outraged that women could say NO and so started pretending to be women in order to flout that NO. It's their fault and no-one else's.

Also-might I add, as I assume I fall into the agephobic 'older woman' category- we understand only too well what trans means. We just refuse to understand in the way TIM want us to. In fact, men who have been behaving badly have been using just that phrase for decades (possibly centuries): caught cheating? "You don't understaaaaand" blown all the money on drugs "you don't understaaand" etc. They need a new phrase.

5128gap · 15/05/2025 08:08

A man behaves aggressively to a woman, and other women are extremely supportive of her. So, male problem behaviour mitigated by women. Until men learn greater self awareness and moderate their behaviour to avoid causing distress, these problems will continue. So not sure what else there is to discuss. The women involved already did all they could.

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 08:08

I've had a look at Caz' page and she sounds like someone it could be fun to spend time with if she managed to get over her ageism.

SinKlaire · 15/05/2025 08:08

I think the only response I can make to the TRAs here is, “You started it.”

Exactly this, due to their stupidity in pushing gender ideology many women are now going to be having to answer questions from aggresive men when they are trying to use the female toilets and the TRAs have no one to blame but themselves.

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:13

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:03

I'm not minimising your experiences.

The point I was making is that it is the TQ+ community trying to impose very rigid ideals of masculinity and femininity on everyone else. You see it in their own teaching materials, from the genderbread person to the "where are you on the spectrum from Barbie to Action Man" graphic.

If you think about it, there is some logic to it.

Trans women cannot be women if being female is a necessity criterion. So they have to redefine women as something other than female so that they can be women according to the new definition. That means that women become people who wear dresses and push up bras and makeup. There is really nothing else. Sex or stereotypes, take your pick. And according to the stereotype based definition, people like Caz don't fit.

Short hair is a stereotype. Big feet is not. Men generally do have bigger feet than women, but foot size is not binary. It is a spectrum with a broadly bimodal distribution in adults. But we don't judge whether someone is a man or a woman by looking at their feet. There are better ways of telling.

Women like you and Caz would be mistaken for men far less often if we got rid of all the gender crap and went back to a purely sex based understanding of what men and women are.

I think rigid gender views are a problem on ALL sides to the point of irony. It's another obstacle in bringing common sense to all this.

My experiences of being called male or masculine have gone on for longer than any of these trans issues.

The reality is that if I was gay, I think I'd have been more inclined (these days) to suspect that maybe there is a "man in me" that everyone else sees and I can't. I'd be susceptible to this ideology if I was a young person today. This is why I feel strongly that everyone has to change how they think.

In a sense, we all created this problem.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:14

I live in a country where it is customary to serve all the women at the dinner table and then the men.

Last year I was at a work lunch with my team and a woman from the London office had come to join us for the day. She has short hair, doesn't wear makeup and was wearing a trouser suit.

When the waitress brought out our main courses, she served all the women except Sarah and then served Sarah with the men. I thought it was a mistake but she then did exactly the same thing again when serving the desserts.

It's a small thing in the grand scheme of things but it really shows we've gone backwards as a society when young people assume that if you don't have long flicky hair you can't possibly consider yourself a woman.

(Sarah, incidentally, is a lesbian and supports the Supreme Court judgment.)

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:14

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 08:06

Probably felt a bit of a fool by that point.
He had two options. Try to bluff his way out, or apologise. He went with the first.

Who is "he"?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:15

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:13

I think rigid gender views are a problem on ALL sides to the point of irony. It's another obstacle in bringing common sense to all this.

My experiences of being called male or masculine have gone on for longer than any of these trans issues.

The reality is that if I was gay, I think I'd have been more inclined (these days) to suspect that maybe there is a "man in me" that everyone else sees and I can't. I'd be susceptible to this ideology if I was a young person today. This is why I feel strongly that everyone has to change how they think.

In a sense, we all created this problem.

I don't see how gender critical feminists helped to create the problem tbh. None of us think Caz looks like a man.

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 08:17

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 08:06

Probably felt a bit of a fool by that point.
He had two options. Try to bluff his way out, or apologise. He went with the first.

I'll try that again. This was in response to this comment

"I thought, upon seeing her face, the man said he 'didn't know' what sex she was."

Inertia · 15/05/2025 08:17

There is no new law. SC have upheld existing law.

Women are not responsible for men’s actions.

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:17

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:15

I don't see how gender critical feminists helped to create the problem tbh. None of us think Caz looks like a man.

But there are many people who would align with GC feminism and do think this way. It's very easy to say none of us would do it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:18

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:17

But there are many people who would align with GC feminism and do think this way. It's very easy to say none of us would do it.

If you're talking about right wing conservatives, I don't think they align with gender critical feminism. Is that what you mean?

Inertia · 15/05/2025 08:19

Oh, and the aggression is not fuelled by the Supreme Court. It’s male aggression- one of the major reasons why women need single-sex spaces to actually be single-sex in the first place.

LizzieSiddal · 15/05/2025 08:20

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:17

But there are many people who would align with GC feminism and do think this way. It's very easy to say none of us would do it.

I don’t understand why you would think that. In this example not one woman thought Caz was a man.

LemonWaffle · 15/05/2025 08:21

So once again the bad behavior of a man causes issues.

If this really happened then it's obviously unfortunate, but the SC ruling is still an absolute victory for women's privacy, dignity and safety.

You do not need to use the word 'cis'. There's already a word for women - it's just 'women'.

borntobequiet · 15/05/2025 08:22

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:17

But there are many people who would align with GC feminism and do think this way. It's very easy to say none of us would do it.

Let’s try again.
No one remotely sane, sensible, observant and cognisant of the physical differences between the sexes, regardless of their philosophical beliefs, would think that person was a man, especially in real life, as photos can be manipulated.

Better?

DustyWindowsills · 15/05/2025 08:22

That occasionally happened to me back in the 80s, when I had my hair done by a men's barber. It was no big deal.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 08:23

3/10. Please try harder.

aylis · 15/05/2025 08:25

Why do people in the UK keep referring to 'bathrooms'? If anything has ever indicated how this whole thing has been transplanted wholesale from North America...

aylis · 15/05/2025 08:27

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:18

If you're talking about right wing conservatives, I don't think they align with gender critical feminism. Is that what you mean?

It's the last thing they align with 😆

They align far more with trans activism with neither having any critique of gender.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 08:27

Theeyeballsinthesky · 15/05/2025 06:59

Bwahahaha I missed this bit of ageism! Thanks for highlighting @Igneococcus

I mean seriously 1. Age is a protected characteristic but it seems TRA are absolutely fine with being as prejudiced as possible towards older ppl and 2. Peopke in their 50s and beyond grow up in an era where gender non conforming men genuinely did push the boundaries of what it meant to be male. We hung out with boys and men who had long hair, wore make up and stereotypically female clothing - but still knew they were men

Agephobia- apparently fine

I know! 😂
It is as if the 60s, 70s and 80s never happened. GI really is so regressive.

HarrietofFire · 15/05/2025 08:28

As a teenager and young adult I was told on several occasions that I was in the wrong queue when waiting for the ladies. I just smiled, said I was a girl, the other person laughed it off and we moved on. I never felt the need to ask anyone to guess my sex or ask them if they would like to see my tits. The other person was always embarrassed when they realised their mistake and such confrontation would have made it worse.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:28

aylis · 15/05/2025 08:25

Why do people in the UK keep referring to 'bathrooms'? If anything has ever indicated how this whole thing has been transplanted wholesale from North America...

It absolutely has.

I'm getting a lot of articles on my Facebook news feed about the Supreme Court judgment. The comments are always packed full of ignoramuses spouting absolute nonsense about how this is a right wing attack on trans people's existence and what have you, and when you click on their profiles 90% of them live in the US.

Just go away and enjoy living in a country where women lack basic rights. You don't need to fight against British women having rights too. Oh, and we don't really have a right wing in the way that you do. Our Tories are more left wing than your Democrats.