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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
TheNumberfaker · 15/05/2025 07:37

I’ve seen this story on Twitter (written by a Scottish transwoman who apparently has the expression of some man to use the women’s toilets somewhere). I’ll have a look…

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 07:37

Helleofabore · 15/05/2025 07:25

”the law came in 15 years ago”

Needs to be repeated at every opportunity.

It is not a new law. If trans supportive groups influencing policy and training around single sex toilets had not misinterpreted that law, then perhaps we would not have this abysmal mess.

Not only is it not a new law, this law that is supposedly so bigoted/unjust/anti-trans was the first of its kind anywhere in the world to give trans people protection from discrimination.

ApocalipstickNow · 15/05/2025 07:39

A man behaves aggressively and threateningly towards a woman.

Another woman (his wife) removes him.

Other women (in the queue) support the first woman, offering sympathy.

It’s like getting shit shouted at you in the street by blokes and blaming women for letting it happen.

Men- be kind.

Mumteedum · 15/05/2025 07:40

Are you a regular Mumsnet user @BisiBodi or as re you here for our re-education?

CollaterlieSistersSister · 15/05/2025 07:43

I got to this later than many others, and all of my thoughts have been shared.

Cis? Eff off.

There may be the odd woman challenged, fair do’s, but it’s a price worth paying for so so many more MEN to be shoved out of women’s spaces.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 07:45

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 07:09

I think there are a lot of people who need to relax their views of masculinity and femininity. It's become clearer that people are suspicious of those who subvert their expectations of what a woman or man should look like.

There are. Imagine being so silly as to think that wearing a dress and having long hair makes someone female.

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 07:46

I think you're looking into this far too much tbh.
It was just an incident and the man knew instantly he'd made an error on his snap judgement.
Yes he was wrong.
You're trying to make this feed a bigger subject and it's not relevant.
There's many reasons the man could've said this. He could have mental difficulties or anything.
There are trans women experiencing horrific abuse and this isn't the case here.
Someone made a silly judgement and one remark based on short hair. move on.
Let's show support to those who need it most.

IllustratedDictionaryOfTheDoldrums · 15/05/2025 07:48

SC fuelled bathroom aggression
I thought this thread was going to be all those photos flying about SM at the moment of men taking selfies in women's toilets with 'You can't stop me' captions.
But yeah, agree with the other posts that the woman in the picture looks female. Unclear why OP thinks she doesn't. Is her hair too short for what OP expects? Also, not impressed with women here being blamed for men's behaviour.
Or why men should be allowed in women's toilets if one man challenges a woman he doesn't feel fits the 'right' standards of feminity. Logic fails here up the wazoo

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 07:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 07:45

There are. Imagine being so silly as to think that wearing a dress and having long hair makes someone female.

Equally as silly as thinking short hair and big feet mean someone is male.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 07:49

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 07:48

Equally as silly as thinking short hair and big feet mean someone is male.

That's the sound of the point whooshing over your head.

BlueEyedBogWitch · 15/05/2025 07:51

I think the only response I can make to the TRAs here is, “You started it.”

All that’s happened as a result of the SC ruling is that people feel empowered to externalise what they were already thinking, and they were only thinking that because of trans ideology.

They’ll all calm down when this trend fades into obscurity where it belongs.

turkeyboots · 15/05/2025 07:52

"Arty" men seem to lean more towards self righteous pricks than other men. And some men are pricks.

I'm sorry your friend was subjected to that. She looks remarkabley like my favourite photo of my mum taken in the early 80s. Femininity has become much more rigid than then.

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 07:52

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 07:49

That's the sound of the point whooshing over your head.

No that's the sound of a woman who has been accused of being male for those reasons.

There is a real problem with people assuming someone's views and gender from the way they look. I've experienced it despite being GC myself. I'm a straight woman with kids. I've found it threatening, offensive and in many cases, racist. Don't minimise my experiences.

NeutrogenaHands · 15/05/2025 07:53

The OP seems to be a copy and paste job from a rather dodgy looking facebook news group.

BlueEyedBogWitch · 15/05/2025 07:54

Also,

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding

Erm…what do you identify as? Or, to put it another way, who do you think you are?

Ddakji · 15/05/2025 07:55

Is @BisiBodi going to return to the thread to explain why she and her pal think male aggression towards women is something the women of FWR and others pleased with the SC ruling to be held responsible for?

Have you posted this on forums frequented by men?

Mumteedum · 15/05/2025 07:55

turkeyboots · 15/05/2025 07:52

"Arty" men seem to lean more towards self righteous pricks than other men. And some men are pricks.

I'm sorry your friend was subjected to that. She looks remarkabley like my favourite photo of my mum taken in the early 80s. Femininity has become much more rigid than then.

So true. There was so much expression of our sexes back then. We have regressed in some ways.

I don't like the label obsession in culture now. That's the opposite of what we were pushing for when I was young.

Spacek · 15/05/2025 07:56

Beamur · 15/05/2025 07:10

It's a non story really.
Once again, a perspective someone protecting women's spaces is rebranded as anti trans. Caz was challenged because wrongly, was assumed to be male. Until they saw her face then easily and correctly realised her sex.

I thought, upon seeing her face, the man said he 'didn't know' what sex she was.

minnienono · 15/05/2025 07:58

She’s so obviously female! Most of the women I know have short hair, many in similar cuts to this (they are older) and none have issues with being mistaken for being men. I know several m-f trans and they are so obviously trans too! Thankfully in my town people are sensible, inclusive and respectful of each other and the trans people use the perfectly nice disabled loo and family mixed changing section at the pool so everyone is happy (or just swim at the beach) it seems if everyone is understanding of each other the problems go away.

GoingToGraceland · 15/05/2025 07:58

Was the aggressive man also shouting about the SC ruling? You failed to include that detail. I doubt he had even heard about the SC ruling (women's rights are not on many men's radar), so the OP is making a massive assumption of a direct correlation.

Also, if men would just stay out of women's single sex spaces there would be no need for women to be constantly on guard.

Hoydenish · 15/05/2025 08:00

OP are you coming back to engage with the replies?

MoistVonL · 15/05/2025 08:01

Bloke shouts across to woman.
Woman ignores him.
Bloke taps woman on shoulder and tells her to use the men’s room
Woman corrects him.
Bloke’s wife removed him from situation.
Other women commiserate with woman for stupid bloke.

Other than the bloke failing to apologise, I don’t see a problem. Situation resolved, everyone used correct facilities, not animals were harmed in the making of this film.

What point is the plopper OP trying to make?

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 08:03

Hoydenish · 15/05/2025 08:00

OP are you coming back to engage with the replies?

Remember that people work. Its 8am. Lots of people start work now. I'm.due to start in 15.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 08:03

MyOliveHelper · 15/05/2025 07:52

No that's the sound of a woman who has been accused of being male for those reasons.

There is a real problem with people assuming someone's views and gender from the way they look. I've experienced it despite being GC myself. I'm a straight woman with kids. I've found it threatening, offensive and in many cases, racist. Don't minimise my experiences.

I'm not minimising your experiences.

The point I was making is that it is the TQ+ community trying to impose very rigid ideals of masculinity and femininity on everyone else. You see it in their own teaching materials, from the genderbread person to the "where are you on the spectrum from Barbie to Action Man" graphic.

If you think about it, there is some logic to it.

Trans women cannot be women if being female is a necessity criterion. So they have to redefine women as something other than female so that they can be women according to the new definition. That means that women become people who wear dresses and push up bras and makeup. There is really nothing else. Sex or stereotypes, take your pick. And according to the stereotype based definition, people like Caz don't fit.

Short hair is a stereotype. Big feet is not. Men generally do have bigger feet than women, but foot size is not binary. It is a spectrum with a broadly bimodal distribution in adults. But we don't judge whether someone is a man or a woman by looking at their feet. There are better ways of telling.

Women like you and Caz would be mistaken for men far less often if we got rid of all the gender crap and went back to a purely sex based understanding of what men and women are.

potpourree · 15/05/2025 08:05

It's bloody appalling that men so frequently harass women, particularly in places like toilets.

I don't think it's relevant that she feels that being female matches being a woman, or that she adopts sex role stereotypes, or whatever nebulous thing OP is trying to convey by labelling her "cis".

Men shouldn't harass women. It's a simple message.