Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
DeanElderberry · 16/05/2025 18:40

I thought maybe people 'preparing' for their exams have been let out. I hope for the sake of the people marking they can produce better expressed arguments and a firmer grip on facts.

RedToothBrush · 16/05/2025 18:41

TinselAngel · 16/05/2025 18:05

Is there a rota at the moment for ploppers to start these threads?

Think so. International rota by the looks of it too.

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:13

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 09:30

Well if you are law abiding and don't want to be a boundary trespassing creep, there shouldn't be an issue. And we are told TW are not creeps or criminals, so why is this a problem?

The solution, as I think we might have mentioned, is additional third spaces, designated mixed sex. Literally for everyone, as inclusive as it gets. For some reason, there is no appetite among the TRA lobby for them. I've never seen a TRA call for them, just like I've never seen them direct any of their strategies towards encouraging men to welcome TW in their spaces. Why is that?

But you’re missing my point — and, I think, the point of the OP.
A WOMAN, who wasn’t, and isn’t, ‘a boundary trespassing creep’ was hassled for using the CORRECT toilets.
I think female only spaces are REALLY important — but I do think that inevitably we judge on appearance. And that can cause issues. That’s all I’m saying.

TeenToTwenties · 16/05/2025 19:15

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:13

But you’re missing my point — and, I think, the point of the OP.
A WOMAN, who wasn’t, and isn’t, ‘a boundary trespassing creep’ was hassled for using the CORRECT toilets.
I think female only spaces are REALLY important — but I do think that inevitably we judge on appearance. And that can cause issues. That’s all I’m saying.

But that photo was clearly a woman. All the women here agree.
And the person hassling was a man.

Seethlaw · 16/05/2025 19:17

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:13

But you’re missing my point — and, I think, the point of the OP.
A WOMAN, who wasn’t, and isn’t, ‘a boundary trespassing creep’ was hassled for using the CORRECT toilets.
I think female only spaces are REALLY important — but I do think that inevitably we judge on appearance. And that can cause issues. That’s all I’m saying.

Thing is, if men weren't known to use the women's, then nobody would have even thought of bothering this woman. Maybe some people would have thought to themselves, "Huh, she really looks like a man!" but nobody would have thought that she was actually a man because men don't use the women's.

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:18

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 09:29

The answer is that all trans women know full well that they were born male and, in more than 90% of cases, still have a penis.

Regardless of how well they believe they "pass", they know they they are male and they now know, even if they didn't know until a month ago, that they are not allowed in women's single sex spaces.

So if they continue to use women's spaces, even if they completely pass and no one notices (which is extremely unlikely because almost none of them pass), they still know they are breaking the law and disrespecting women.

What they can and should do is use the men's, and if anyone questions them they say, "I'm a trans woman, which means I am biologically male just like you, and so I am required to use this space in accordance with the law if there is no unisex alternative. I have as much right to be here as you do, please let me take a slash in peace."

And if they don't feel able to do that, they need to campaign for more additional unisex spaces.

In the meantime, if they feel there are no spaces they can use and feel forced to self exclude, that is not actually worse than women being forced to self exclude because their single sex spaces are not actually single sex. If you are bleating about trans people not being adequately provided for, you need to explain why you think it was fine for women not to be adequately provided for.

Yes, of course. But I think you’re missing my point. The OP’s point — and mine — was about WOMEN who don’t look particularly feminine. What happens to them? if you’re a biological women I think you have a right to use female only spaces. But the only way we, as female users of female only spaces, can judge if someone should be there, is based on appearance. And appearance isn’t everything. I genuinely don’t know how we — as women — deal with that.

TeenToTwenties · 16/05/2025 19:21

@BetterWithPockets Are you honestly saying you can't tell the difference between a man and a woman? And that in cases of doubt just talking with the person wouldn't happily sort it out from e.g. pitch of voice?

Greyskybluesky · 16/05/2025 19:23

Seethlaw · 16/05/2025 19:17

Thing is, if men weren't known to use the women's, then nobody would have even thought of bothering this woman. Maybe some people would have thought to themselves, "Huh, she really looks like a man!" but nobody would have thought that she was actually a man because men don't use the women's.

👆 this is it in a nutshell!

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:23

TeenToTwenties · 16/05/2025 19:15

But that photo was clearly a woman. All the women here agree.
And the person hassling was a man.

You say she was clearly a woman but she was told she in the wrong toilet queue. So someone DIDN’T think she was a woman. And I’ve also been that woman!
All I’m saying is — and this is a hill I will die on — women need women only spaces, BUT it’s not always easy to determine whether someone’s a woman or not.
I have literally sat in a pub and people (not people I knew) have taken bets on whether I was male or female.

NotmeMother · 16/05/2025 19:24

What happened to these blokey looking women before, let's say 5 years ago? @BetterWithPockets . Surely they must be used to people questioning their sex OR, like before, it's not really an issue because women can usually tell the sex of their fellow women.

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:26

TeenToTwenties · 16/05/2025 19:21

@BetterWithPockets Are you honestly saying you can't tell the difference between a man and a woman? And that in cases of doubt just talking with the person wouldn't happily sort it out from e.g. pitch of voice?

I have been mistaken for a man SO many times in my life. And clearly, someone mistook the woman the OP was posting about for a man. You don’t have to believe it happens, but it absolutely does. That’s all I’m saying!

TeenToTwenties · 16/05/2025 19:28

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:26

I have been mistaken for a man SO many times in my life. And clearly, someone mistook the woman the OP was posting about for a man. You don’t have to believe it happens, but it absolutely does. That’s all I’m saying!

And when you say politely No actually I'm female using your natural voice, what happens?

Surely it is better that some women get challenged than all women are too scared of being called transphobic for challenging an obvious man in their spaces?

Alucard55 · 16/05/2025 19:29

I can't think of a time in my life when I've been confused as to what sex a person was.

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:29

NotmeMother · 16/05/2025 19:24

What happened to these blokey looking women before, let's say 5 years ago? @BetterWithPockets . Surely they must be used to people questioning their sex OR, like before, it's not really an issue because women can usually tell the sex of their fellow women.

Oh god. I was mistaken for a man SO MANY times in my late teens/20s. That’s 30+ years ago. Women and men questioned my gender. It’s not a new thing.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 16/05/2025 19:31

You can keep saying someone @BetterWithPockets - it was a man! It was a man who kicked off. Yet again it’s a men problem

and I’ve been mistaken for a man and you know what I just laughed & said “nope” while the bloke looked mortified. The idea that people being ‘misgendered’ is some heinous crime requiring a fainting couch & smelling salts is just bizzare!! I’ve been mistaken for a man - so effing what??

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 19:32

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:13

But you’re missing my point — and, I think, the point of the OP.
A WOMAN, who wasn’t, and isn’t, ‘a boundary trespassing creep’ was hassled for using the CORRECT toilets.
I think female only spaces are REALLY important — but I do think that inevitably we judge on appearance. And that can cause issues. That’s all I’m saying.

No, the point is being missed by you, because at that point in the discussion, we were indeed talking about men in the women's toilets.

If you really are frequently mistaken for a man even after you talk and interact with someone then that's unfortunate for you. It's not a reason to open up women's spaces so men can do whatever they like.

pearandchocolate · 16/05/2025 19:32

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:18

Yes, of course. But I think you’re missing my point. The OP’s point — and mine — was about WOMEN who don’t look particularly feminine. What happens to them? if you’re a biological women I think you have a right to use female only spaces. But the only way we, as female users of female only spaces, can judge if someone should be there, is based on appearance. And appearance isn’t everything. I genuinely don’t know how we — as women — deal with that.

But so what? Some people looking a bit androgynous will have been an issue since at least the 1960s, and somehow as a society we coped... like with age verification and so on. 99% of the time it's completely clear and then the rest of the time we politely query or ask for official proof (depending on whether it's say just a shop changing room vs joining in women's sports or a rape support group). It's not a new thing at all.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 19:35

Seethlaw · 16/05/2025 19:17

Thing is, if men weren't known to use the women's, then nobody would have even thought of bothering this woman. Maybe some people would have thought to themselves, "Huh, she really looks like a man!" but nobody would have thought that she was actually a man because men don't use the women's.

Yes. TRAs, by eroding boundaries, encouraging illegal activity and destroying an important social norm, have now made it so that women have to fear men in their spaces whereas before, the idea of a man in there was so anathema, they would have just thought "she's very butch".

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 19:37

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:18

Yes, of course. But I think you’re missing my point. The OP’s point — and mine — was about WOMEN who don’t look particularly feminine. What happens to them? if you’re a biological women I think you have a right to use female only spaces. But the only way we, as female users of female only spaces, can judge if someone should be there, is based on appearance. And appearance isn’t everything. I genuinely don’t know how we — as women — deal with that.

Can you genuinely not tell whether someone is female or not?

BellissimoGecko · 16/05/2025 19:38

I don’t believe you, you patronising, condescending twat. Fuck off with your use of ‘cis’ on here.

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:38

TeenToTwenties · 16/05/2025 19:28

And when you say politely No actually I'm female using your natural voice, what happens?

Surely it is better that some women get challenged than all women are too scared of being called transphobic for challenging an obvious man in their spaces?

You seem to think I’m against female only spaces. I’m absolutely not. But I do think we all judge on appearances. If a person looks like a woman (whatever we think a woman looks like), we’d be happy sharing a space with them. If they don’t, we perhaps wouldn’t. That’s all im saying!

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:40

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 19:37

Can you genuinely not tell whether someone is female or not?

I THINK I can. But people have CLEARLY not been able to tell whether or not I’m female (as also with the case the OP posted)— so clearly not everyone can. And in those instances where I think I can tell — whose to say whether I’m right or not?

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 19:41

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:38

You seem to think I’m against female only spaces. I’m absolutely not. But I do think we all judge on appearances. If a person looks like a woman (whatever we think a woman looks like), we’d be happy sharing a space with them. If they don’t, we perhaps wouldn’t. That’s all im saying!

How come, when women were being kept out of university and voting booths, nobody ever said "but what if they don't look like women", but when men are being kept out of women's spaces, it suddenly becomes so complicated and difficult?

If you agree that women need women only spaces then you'll also have to accept that this may indeed cause an issue for women who have altered their appearance so much that they can't be identified as female even when they talk and move and interact. That takes more than short hair and men's jeans. That's unfortunate for them but it's a better price to pay than men getting their knobs out around little girls.

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:42

pearandchocolate · 16/05/2025 19:32

But so what? Some people looking a bit androgynous will have been an issue since at least the 1960s, and somehow as a society we coped... like with age verification and so on. 99% of the time it's completely clear and then the rest of the time we politely query or ask for official proof (depending on whether it's say just a shop changing room vs joining in women's sports or a rape support group). It's not a new thing at all.

I’m not saying it’s new! I’m JUST SAYING WE JUDGE BY APPEARANCE. And sometimes, appearance doesn’t make it easy to judge. That’s ALL I’m saying

WithSilverBells · 16/05/2025 19:44

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 19:40

I THINK I can. But people have CLEARLY not been able to tell whether or not I’m female (as also with the case the OP posted)— so clearly not everyone can. And in those instances where I think I can tell — whose to say whether I’m right or not?

he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face.

The man was looking at her from behind. The women in the queue will have seen her face, which is clearly that of a female. This is a giant nothing-burger, as our US visitors would say

Swipe left for the next trending thread