SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

[BisiBodi]

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

Well I don't know what you look like but I'd bet good money I'd be able to tell you are a woman very easily.

As for the OP, I honestly think it's a bullshit made up story. The woman in the picture doesn't look remotely like a man.

And anyway, for the billionth time... the Transman Gotcha, or whatever you want to call the "but masculine women" thing was fully addressed in the ruling. God I wish people would read it!

You are assuming the tale was true, not a makey-up coat trailing exercise.

Oh. Long dashes again.

This thread got so huge so quickly that someone else may have made this point, so apologies for any repetition. Poked by and shouted at by a man while in a lavatory queue? that's "common assault". It's a crime. If you see it happening, call the police and report it. It's an offence under the Criminal Justice Act. Doesn't even have to be any physical contact. Threatening behaviour is sufficient. Don't get blinded about assault being always 'sexual assault' or "domestic". What the OP described was common assault. With witnesses, too. Report it.

Speak for yourself Pockets. Oh - you are, repeatedly.
I learnt many years ago not to judge solely by appearances

What's your point? That we should all believe the b s tale from the absent OP and welcome all men in to women's spaces because you and the fake news in the OP mean that all men must be welcome alongside undressing / vulnerable women - predators and all? Or what?

Why is this women's problems to resolve? Why not head off to Dadsnet and point out that as you are repeatedly misgendered they need to stop judging other men by appearances and welcome all men into the Gents so that....?

As has been said repeatedly - if this story actually happened it was a man who interfered and this is a men's problem to solve. Men are now firmly back in men's spaces - and women and girls shouldn't be emotionally coerced because a vanishingly few might pass.

Indeed. I have a unisex name and my first NI card arrived in the post addressed to Mr. I have regularly throughout my life had calls, letter and emails to ‘Mr Curious’.

Used to live Finsbury Park too and if you popped out after dark to get some milk dressed in a skirt/heels you had to fend off the curb crawlers. It was preferable to don a hoody, joggers and sneakers and intentionally be misgendered than get harassed or raped/assaulted.

When I lived there I was repeatedly kerb crawled in broad daylight! Wearing sweaty running clothes, short hair and all - "Are you working love?" 🙄

The scenario in the OP didnt make sense because everyone else could see she was a woman. So didnt really help with the premise that they will be a group of women who will be harassed because they look like men.

Its an idea thats popular with trans people- those who dont pass can often reach a middle point where we simply cannot tell for sure if they are male or female. Ive been shown photos of people and asked to guess in gotchas.

But in real life, when we are close and talking to people, can we really not tell? We will take in a hundred clues in a few seconds so clothes and height will only be one of many.

Being mistaken for a moment is not the same as after a better look or a short conversation.

Speak for yourself Pockets. Oh - you are, repeatedly...
I’m sorry — I didn’t realise I wasn’t meant to reply to people quoting me.
And, yes, of course I’m speaking for myself. Who else would I be speaking for?

I haven't read the the thread other than the tendentious original post, but just wanted to say that any thread on a UK forum headlined as being about bathrooms, rather than toilets or lavatories, is enough to raise both my hackles and my suspicions. I'm in my late 70s, have had short hair almost all my adult life, mostly shorter than my husband's, don't even possess skirts or heels, yet I have never been mistaken for a man and doubt I ever will be. If I were, so what? It's not me who would look silly when the mistake was discovered.

Sorry Pockets. Just exasperation at your unclear message?
In recent years we've suddenly had the experiences of women being "misgendered" being weaponised to demand that unless men are allowed into women's spaces, some women will be targeted and misgendered. Usually by people (men) who don't give a fuck about women or by women who work for Stonewall etc.
Like many older lesbians, I've been very occasionally misgendered. Never been as issue but always resolved with a quick - "oh, sorry madam" 😁The idea that suddenly the population is unable to correctly sex people is I think an an urban myth - designed like so much of this nonsense by men to coerce women into accepting men in changing rooms, showers. alongside girls undressing etc.

It's escalated since the CS judgment and I'm just exasperated by the hysteria and lack of basic respect for women. The OP was nonsense. The woman is clearly a woman and the desperate attempts to make GC women on FWR suddenly feel guilty is coercive control writ large.

I’m sorry my message was unclear — but tbh I find this whole thread exasperating. I’m what the trans community would call a TERF, and am unashamedly so, but have felt incredibly got at on this thread because I’ve had the temerity to say that the only way we can tell whether someone should be in our space or not is based on appearance. I’m not using this as a basis to say that men should be allowed in women’s spaces but it genuinely frustrates me that it so often seems impossible to have a proper discussion without shooting down anyone who doesn’t think EXACTLY the same as us. If WE can’t have a sensible conversation, then what hope anyone else? I’m really really not meaning to be an arse here, but am feeling quite despondent.

desperate attempts to make GC women on FWR suddenly feel guilty is coercive control writ large.
Yep. I grew up with a coercive controlling father, and u have never liked being told how to think or how to behave. And this 'man is alleged to have done a nasty thing, you horrible terfy hags must feel guilty, self-flagellate, recant and get back in your boxes' just isn't going to work.

What's the sensible discussion that you want? There are countless powerful posts on this thread all explaining why the demands of men to access women and girls when vulnerable / undressing are both unacceptable and in breach of the law.
It's not based on appearance. It's based on facts. Transactivists and men need to grow up and obey both the law and the social contract. For decades society understood that men shouldn't be in places where women and girls are undressed. Just because someone "passes" doesn't change biological reality or the law.

So what are you asking? What's your point? That because a few men might pass they need to be alongside teenage girls undressing? Because that's the coercive control exerted by transactivists. Because some men allegedly pass, women have no right to single sex spaces. That the law doesn't apply to these sad men.

I'm genuinely sorry that you feel you're not engaged in a "sensible conversation". I'd respectfully suggest that you haven't really thought this through and the feedback you're getting reflects that.

But please do clarify what it is you're arguing. Some men may pass as women so that means .....?????

BetterWithPockets

yes, you seem to be saying that sometimes people can't tell.

You have to understand that being 'unable to tell' is used by trans activists to imply that therefore, for some unknown bloody reason, sex segregated spaces can't work. And therefore we shouldn't have them.

They like to suggest that it's really quite hard to tell for an awful lot of people which makes it An Issue.

When in reality, it's almost always easy to tell, if not immediately, then subsequently.

If there is genuinely an occasion when you can't tell, then there's no solution to that. The person will pass, and access the toilets they want.

and if people are mistaken, thinking a woman is a man when she's lining up for the ladies, then they're mistaken.

She either carries on, or finds a unisex loo to avoid the hassle.

Sometimes, the solution is a bit shit.

I still don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Yes, in most cases we sex people by looking at them, perhaps interacting with them. It's accurate over 99% of the time. Yes, occasionally looking alone won't do and you might need a brief interaction as several masculine presenting women on here have said. And yes, in an even smaller number of cases, where a person has gone to great lengths to disguise their sex, they will sometimes manage to fool people even on interaction and this will inconvenience them and is a result of their choices.

And? So what? What other law do we uphold without ever, not once, inconveniencing the wrong person?

I think though your point comes down to something that has been acknowledged by many already on the thread. Yes. Some women have always been questioned as to whether they are in the correct toilet for their sex. I have been, others have been. It seems you have been.

What is the relevance ? The OP is using this as some kind of gotcha, I assume from their contributions. It has been used as if a blunt tool so many times as if women and girls being asked about their sex should stop.

However, it is one of the first methods that is available to us to keep female single sex spaces free from male people. Shaming women who ask politely with examples such as posed by the OP, seeks to stop those questions. Why should women not seek to ask questions to feel secure in a space meant for them?

You say you don’t know what the answer is. Ok. Maybe It is hard to admit that there are very few other options available to women and girls. But I don’t see another option.

Because part of the reason that women should ask is because they are highly likely to know from hearing the voice of the person answering and seeing them interact, what sex they are. They can consider their options.

One of the things that keeps being dismissed is that there are some, many many, male people who enter the spaces meant to be single sex because they want to transgress those boundaries for multiple reasons. Just being in there, even being asked, is part of the attraction. And some of those reasons require a period of time to test the boundaries before moving closer to the end goal - whatever that is. Yes, female people analyse ‘appearance’. But usually that involves multiple body cues, not merely what someone is wearing and their hair etc.

It usually involves taking in (even subconsciously) skeletal proportions (visible through movement, not just visible body parts), the huge number of facial cues and how the face moves, gait, posture and voice are just some. To that end, yes, female people do judge people by appearance. Probably not appearance meaning clothes, hair style etc.

Either way, women not reacting to those first forays from male people may encourage further actions. And of course, on hearing a male voice answering, a female person can make numerous decisions. Including removing herself immediately from the space and seeking police or security to then make further enquiries etc. or she may make other decisions.

Male people’s correct sex will rarely remain unidentified 100% of the time. And female people are just as likely to immediately remove themselves from that space and may never return rather than confront. So, it also is likely that a female person asking is either thinking intuitively that they are asking another female person and seeking confirmation. Or maybe they are in the minority and will confront a male person in the women’s toilet.

Of course this woman should not have been touched by the male person. And he should not be entering the single sex space to question her. Maybe he felt there was no other option, but it was not appropriate.

Did the situation have the relevance that the OP attached to it?

And sure, it happens that women and girls will be asked. They have been for decades.

However, what is the point the OP wanted to make? What is the point you want to make? Are they the same? Do you think women and girls should be shamed and told never to ask politely whether a person is in the correct toilet for their sex? (I am not quite sure at this point hence me asking)

You see, you say, ‘It's not based on appearance. It's based on facts.’

I say, on a day to day basis, it’s absolutely based on appearance. How on earth, if not appearance, do we judge whether someone should be in our space or not? If someone ‘passes’ and decides to ignore the law, how do we know? We don’t.
And if someone doesn’t ‘pass’ but is actually female, what then?

You say, ‘Some men may pass as women so that means .....?????’
To finish your sentence (because you asked me to): ‘Some men may pass as women so if they’re in a female only space, how do we know?’

My argument (and it’s not really an argument as such) is simply that we all, inevitably, judge whether or not someone should be in a female only space according to how they look and that that is not ever going to be 100% accurate.

In the time it took to write that on my phone, I have cross posted.

My argument (and it’s not really an argument as such) is simply that we all, inevitably, judge whether or not someone should be in a female only space according to how they look and that that is not ever going to be 100% accurate.

So what?

What other laws and social norms do we attempt to weaken and undermine because we can't absolutely guarantee that nobody under any circumstances will ever get away with breaking them?

Seriously, so bloody what?

‘My argument (and it’s not really an argument as such) is simply that we all, inevitably, judge whether or not someone should be in a female only space according to how they look and that that is not ever going to be 100% accurate.’

Great. You believe that some rare male person will access the space undetected.

Got it. What of it?

WHAT is your problem? I’m not trying to weaken or undermine anything. I’m on a public forum saying what I think. If you don’t like it, so bloody what?

What's your point?

I’m expressing an opinion. I am allowed to do that. What of it?

What’s yours?