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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
mrshoho · 16/05/2025 11:55

Have you seen all the macho, manly premier league football stars lately? A load of them with flowing locks using a variety of hairbands, man buns, hairclips to enable them to safely play their sport and no one is in the least bit bothered. So why would anyone make a fuss about a little boy attending nursery with clips in his hair? I haven't seen anyone on this thread judging either.

Kucinghitam · 16/05/2025 12:04

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 11:41

Who on this thread thinks boys shouldn't wear hair clips?

It's one of those "look over there at a completely different squirrel" things.

illinivich · 16/05/2025 12:13

Is there a thread anywhere on the internet where the majority of posters agree that boys shouldn't wear hair clips?

Datun · 16/05/2025 12:33

illinivich · 16/05/2025 12:13

Is there a thread anywhere on the internet where the majority of posters agree that boys shouldn't wear hair clips?

No. I think it's completely made up

ArabellaScott · 16/05/2025 12:44

I think there was a thread where someone mentioned in passing a small boy wearing a pink and a blue hair clip, in the colours of the trans flag. I suppose that's what the pp was referring to. Can't recall which thread. Perhaps the pp will come back to enlighten us.

ArabellaScott · 16/05/2025 12:51

Unless pp was referring to Diane Ehrensaft.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/we-trust-kids-know-what-gender-they-are

'These feelings can surface as early as the second year of life, when a girl toddler frantically pulls the fancy barrettes out of her hair or a boy toddler wraps his blanket around his head to create long, flowing hair.'

Diane thinks that a wee girl pulling hair clips out of her hair is communicating that she is transgender.

ArabellaScott · 16/05/2025 12:52

Diane is very committed to the hair clip theory of gender.

BunfightBetty · 16/05/2025 13:22

Diane is a total muppet.

soupycustard · 16/05/2025 13:36

Well this all turned very bonkers didn't it.
My arse is very pert, thank you very much Brigitte.
However, despite its pertness I must admit that I would have trouble arguing its relevance to women's sex-based rights. Maybe I'm missing something.

feministmom4ever · 16/05/2025 14:22

minnienono · 15/05/2025 07:58

She’s so obviously female! Most of the women I know have short hair, many in similar cuts to this (they are older) and none have issues with being mistaken for being men. I know several m-f trans and they are so obviously trans too! Thankfully in my town people are sensible, inclusive and respectful of each other and the trans people use the perfectly nice disabled loo and family mixed changing section at the pool so everyone is happy (or just swim at the beach) it seems if everyone is understanding of each other the problems go away.

The problem is a lot of trans people are not content to use a perfectly nice handicapped toilet. You should see the reactions I got when I posted this suggest on Reddit! They have male entitlement and want to use the women’s toilet. Many of them are also under the false impression that they can pass as female.

Alucard55 · 16/05/2025 14:30

I think they just want in where the women are. If all women started using the mens toilets (and considering so many are big and butch they would get away with it) the men who aren't men would want in there too.

Seethlaw · 16/05/2025 14:33

feministmom4ever · 16/05/2025 14:22

The problem is a lot of trans people are not content to use a perfectly nice handicapped toilet. You should see the reactions I got when I posted this suggest on Reddit! They have male entitlement and want to use the women’s toilet. Many of them are also under the false impression that they can pass as female.

"Many of them are also under the false impression that they can pass as female."

I think for some of them, that's the main problem: they think they pass, so they view forcing them into a unisex toilet as making them unhappy while changing nothing for women = a net negative result. They don't realise (or don't want to admit) that a lot of women clock them and are uncomfortable to begin with.

LesserCelandine · 16/05/2025 14:37

They don’t want access to women’s spaces, they want access to women. We are non-consenting participants in their sexual fetish or NPC upholding their fantasy about themselves.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 14:42

Seethlaw · 16/05/2025 14:33

"Many of them are also under the false impression that they can pass as female."

I think for some of them, that's the main problem: they think they pass, so they view forcing them into a unisex toilet as making them unhappy while changing nothing for women = a net negative result. They don't realise (or don't want to admit) that a lot of women clock them and are uncomfortable to begin with.

And since women don't challenge them, because most women wouldn't want to get into a confrontation with a man, particularly one associated with a movement of which violent death and rape threats and disregard for the law and boundaries are a common feature, they think that means they pass.

Although some do get off on knowing that they don't pass and women are too scared to say anything.

Seethlaw · 16/05/2025 14:59

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 14:42

And since women don't challenge them, because most women wouldn't want to get into a confrontation with a man, particularly one associated with a movement of which violent death and rape threats and disregard for the law and boundaries are a common feature, they think that means they pass.

Although some do get off on knowing that they don't pass and women are too scared to say anything.

Yup.

Another thing that really doesn't help is the echo chamber effect of support groups. I don't just mean the deliberate parts, where they all consciously reassure each other, though that in itself doesn't help. I mean also the unconscious part, where they get so used to seeing each other as women, that they don't realise that their mental map of what effective passing means, is completely warped.

I remember, back when I attended support groups, after seeing them for so long, I thought some of the trans women I was with passed pretty well. Except that when we went out, they never did. I even remember one time when a tourist enthusiastically took a picture of them because they were "so beautiful", using a masculine form of the word.

So they want to think they pass, they are told by other trans women that they pass, their brain map of what passing means is warped, and women don't want to show them that they clocked them. It's a recipe for some major misunderstanding, if not disaster.

LesserCelandine · 16/05/2025 15:07

Whenever I have shared what should have been a single sex space with a man presenting in women’s clothes, it is blatantly obvious that all the women clocked him and that the man himself may be completely unaware of this. It is impossible for a man to even be in a female only space, as his presence makes it mixed space, so he will never see the shift that takes place in the body language of all the women present - regardless of their ‘trans allyship’.

thirdfiddle · 16/05/2025 16:17

A few pages behind but I'm feeling outraged for poor Gary the builder, who has as much right to identify as trans as any other man. Are builders not permitted to have identities? Or are we regressing to a world where "women" aren't permitted to be builders, even if they're really men? Talk about transphobia.

RedToothBrush · 16/05/2025 16:28

A reminder.

Whenever people talk about rape how the women look is always referred to.

However rape is not a crime about men being unable to control their desires around beautiful women.

Rape is a crime of power and control over women. It's a crime of opportunity. It's used as a weapon of war as a result. That's why you get old ladies raped in their own homes. Not because the old lady is desirable but because the man CAN do it.

So I think in amongst all the jokes about saggy tits and the misogynistic dismissal of women being 'too ugly' to be targeted as vouyerism targets in the ladies, we should keep in mind the nature of rape and how it's not always anything remotely to do with sexual attraction but is everything to do with sexual dominance.

It's kinda the entire point of our objections and our understanding about why males in female spaces are not appropriate regardless of who those women are.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 16:40

RedToothBrush · 16/05/2025 16:28

A reminder.

Whenever people talk about rape how the women look is always referred to.

However rape is not a crime about men being unable to control their desires around beautiful women.

Rape is a crime of power and control over women. It's a crime of opportunity. It's used as a weapon of war as a result. That's why you get old ladies raped in their own homes. Not because the old lady is desirable but because the man CAN do it.

So I think in amongst all the jokes about saggy tits and the misogynistic dismissal of women being 'too ugly' to be targeted as vouyerism targets in the ladies, we should keep in mind the nature of rape and how it's not always anything remotely to do with sexual attraction but is everything to do with sexual dominance.

It's kinda the entire point of our objections and our understanding about why males in female spaces are not appropriate regardless of who those women are.

Completely agree. That's why guys like Brigitte do the extremely disgusting "you're too ugly to abuse" thing. Partly to shut women up (he thinks we care deeply about being attractive to men), partly to frame abuse as a compliment that we should be glad for and partly to deflect from the truth that it definitely is not about unbridled lust, but about power, control and misogyny. "It's not yours, it's mine and I'll prove it" sort of thing.

For my part, and others I believe, one way of dealing with it is to make a joke of it, but we were certainly not laughing at abuse. We were laughing at Brigitte and making a mockery of the misogynistic views he was espousing.

RedToothBrush · 16/05/2025 16:46

It was a demonstration of sexual dominance in its own right.

We should identify and name it.

ArabellaScott · 16/05/2025 17:33

Thanks, Red, I agree entirely.

I do not know what sex Brigitte is, but the posts display aggressive misogyny.

Datun · 16/05/2025 17:50

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 16:40

Completely agree. That's why guys like Brigitte do the extremely disgusting "you're too ugly to abuse" thing. Partly to shut women up (he thinks we care deeply about being attractive to men), partly to frame abuse as a compliment that we should be glad for and partly to deflect from the truth that it definitely is not about unbridled lust, but about power, control and misogyny. "It's not yours, it's mine and I'll prove it" sort of thing.

For my part, and others I believe, one way of dealing with it is to make a joke of it, but we were certainly not laughing at abuse. We were laughing at Brigitte and making a mockery of the misogynistic views he was espousing.

For my part, and others I believe, one way of dealing with it is to make a joke of it,

Yes, men have all the brawn, unfortunately.

So sometimes, it's just instinctive to hit back at them with the worst thing they can think of.

Courtesy of Margaret Atwood.

TinselAngel · 16/05/2025 18:05

Is there a rota at the moment for ploppers to start these threads?

HardyCrow · 16/05/2025 18:14

Butterflybrain1 · 15/05/2025 20:34

I didn’t say that women shouldn’t have access to single sex provisions - that’s a total straw man. And I think you probably know it. And I think you probably also know why toilets are different to prisons and sexual assault services. I hope you’ve never had to access either, but I can assure you the vibe is very different to popping for a wee in M&S cafe. Nice try though.

While I agree that a person can’t change their biology, nobody is saying a trans woman is a woman according to the equality act or anything of the sort. But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against. I also appreciate that there are quite a large number of trans people who ‘pass’ - what do we do there then? Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now cos if so, I’m going to have to start paying more attention to my bikini line.

“Pass” or not they’re men. They use facilities provided for men. Men will have to accommodate them.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/05/2025 18:29

TinselAngel · 16/05/2025 18:05

Is there a rota at the moment for ploppers to start these threads?

Seems like it. Let's see what the weekend brings when the emotionally incontinent enraged at being denied access to women's bodies wake up.