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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
ArabellaScott · 16/05/2025 08:35

MyOliveHelper · 16/05/2025 07:55

It's so funny to come back to this thread after reading the other where people were saying that boys shouldn't wear hair clips.

It's funny, because that is a fabrication.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 08:36

MyOliveHelper · 16/05/2025 07:55

It's so funny to come back to this thread after reading the other where people were saying that boys shouldn't wear hair clips.

I suppose it takes all sorts in terms of sense of humour. I couldn't care less if boys wear hair clips. I object to the idea that it would make them girls.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 08:38

DeanElderberry · 16/05/2025 08:30

Even if Gary is lovely, when he needs to pee, the place he is safest from attack by horrible scary 'terfs' is the men's loos.

Yes, this is another inconsistency.

If the people they are most afraid of is TERFs, why do they want to share spaces with us anyway? Make it make sense.

EdithStourton · 16/05/2025 08:40

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 07:14

He knows, he just doesn't care. The point is that he thinks male wants should trump female needs because he thinks women are support humans for men. It's classic misogyny, especially when he even did the "who'd abuse women as ugly as you anyway" thing.

Oh, absolutely.
The safeguarding comment was more for anyone casually browsing the thread.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 09:00

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 08:38

Yes, this is another inconsistency.

If the people they are most afraid of is TERFs, why do they want to share spaces with us anyway? Make it make sense.

I have seen TRAs threaten to stab and shoot women who won't let them use women's toilets and to piss on the floor, and to try to coerce women into accepting it by calling for them to be "compassionate", or accusing them of being hateful, bigoted, insane, stupid, more dangerous than men and, of course, so ugly that no man would pay them the compliment of abusing them anyway.

I have never, ever, not once, seen a TRA call upon men to be welcoming of TW in their spaces.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 09:03

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 09:00

I have seen TRAs threaten to stab and shoot women who won't let them use women's toilets and to piss on the floor, and to try to coerce women into accepting it by calling for them to be "compassionate", or accusing them of being hateful, bigoted, insane, stupid, more dangerous than men and, of course, so ugly that no man would pay them the compliment of abusing them anyway.

I have never, ever, not once, seen a TRA call upon men to be welcoming of TW in their spaces.

But we are bigoted if we do not wish to share our spaces with the people threatening violence against us. Of course.

Fordian · 16/05/2025 09:08

So you think men should have unfettered access to all female spaces, at all times because one bloke had a pop at one woman in a toilet queue?

You fail to grasp that we all KNOW trans identified males use female toilets all the time, many eyes down, quickly and furtively; some to derive some fetishitic pleasure at women’s discomfort. We KNOW the SC’s clarification of the law won’t change that; but now there’ll be more of such men reconsidering the wisdom of openly breaking the law, some now realising Stonewall et al lied to them; but the big ‘wins’ here are in areas where one’s sex can be legally (biologically) verified, such as TiMs strip searching women, TiMs in female sport, prisons, places where women get undressed publicly, all-female shortlists etc.

It is interesting that it was a man who called this woman out (incorrectly). Women don’t tend to do that because we all know it is not safe to challenge a man, especially one who is making it clear he does not respect female boundaries. Many TiMs use our reticence as ‘proof’ that women are okay with a male presence in a female space. It is true that a surprising number of younger women support this nonsense, but, to be fair, many have been indoctrinated throughout their education to #BeKind by institutions suckling at the teat of Stonewall lies.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 09:10

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 09:03

But we are bigoted if we do not wish to share our spaces with the people threatening violence against us. Of course.

It's quite a male attitude towards forcing compliance. My abusive father used to do it too. Threats of violence, sometimes followed through, together with sanctimonious moralistic lectures about how doing what he said would make you a Better Human and the only reason you would refuse would be if you were Insane and Evil.

I'm not saying women can't be manipulative and coercive too but they tend to do it differently. The God complex, oneself as the moral compass of everything and with the power to smite down the disbelievers, is more a male thing. The idea that abuse is a male compliment that women shouldn't assume they are worthy of is a VERY male thing.

The mask always slips eventually. There's just too much rage behind it.

Meceme · 16/05/2025 09:11

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 20:45

The frothing I refer to is in relation to the complete lack of nuance and refusal to see that there is nuance and shades of grey in this debate.

I actually thought I might be a bit on the TERFY side, because I don’t think feminism applies to transwomen. Mainly because it’s a whole different experience growing up as a girl in this world, being socialised as a girl, going through puberty, dealing with all the patriarchal bullshit. I think it devalues the experiences of both sets of people.

My age and experience (thanks for the free patronising by the way, I usually have to take my car to a garage for that) of working with very vulnerable people has taught me it really is generally better to not be a shit about things. Rather hope I don’t grow out of that.

To quote the wonderful Terry Pratchett:

"But there are so many shades of grey"
"Nope"
"No?"
"There's no greys, just white that's got a bit grubby."

Channeling my inner Granny Weatherwax, "evil is treating people as things, including yourself"

I'm fed up of being treated as a thing. A bit part in someone's delusion. Women's feelings matter independent of their use to support others identity fantasies.

RedToothBrush · 16/05/2025 09:12

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 22:03

@Seethlaw

Have you ever been in contact or had a meaningful conversation with a trans person?
I'm guessing not.

Best. Post. Ever.

I love Bingo.

SternJoyousBee · 16/05/2025 09:12

illinivich · 16/05/2025 08:09

People know that men don't go through a lot to transition, Isla Bryson demonstrated that. It invloves declaring their status, but everything else is personal and what they choose to do.

But trans friendly people are not trying to solve the Bryson dilemma. Its not so much if he is he trans or pretending, its how to embrace men as TW, and continue with safeguarding.

Should bryson have been able to enrol on a beauty course and allowed to wax and tan women? Should he be employed as a female technician, having access to women and the female toilets?

If yes, up to the point he was found guilty of rape, thats abandoning safeguarding.

People who support TWAW need to think what that means. Saying single sex services should be limited need to acknowledge that they are removing safeguarding in all other areas.

Exactly this. In law, person cannot be Sally in the toilets but Gary in a prison or the real life is exmple, cannot be Isla in the beautician course and Adam in prison. Sadly he was allowed to be Isla in both to the discomfort of teenage girls and the incredulity of the general public

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 09:17

I’m not sure how much this contributes to the discussion, OP, but I was actually thinking about this last night, and my take on it is that, regardless of your biological gender, it all comes down to if you ‘pass’ as a woman. If you do, then no-one will bat an eye. If you don’t (and I’ve been mistaken for a man COUNTLESS times, especially in my late teens and early twenties when I wore baggy jeans, army boots, short hair etc — plus I’m nearly six foot tall), then there will be those who question (perhaps just in their own head; perhaps out loud; perhaps aggressively) which toilet/changing room you should be using. I really don’t know what the answer is, sadly.

LesserCelandine · 16/05/2025 09:21

It doesn’t come down to whether you pass as a women (men don’t), it comes down to whether men respect women’s boundaries or not.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 09:29

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 09:17

I’m not sure how much this contributes to the discussion, OP, but I was actually thinking about this last night, and my take on it is that, regardless of your biological gender, it all comes down to if you ‘pass’ as a woman. If you do, then no-one will bat an eye. If you don’t (and I’ve been mistaken for a man COUNTLESS times, especially in my late teens and early twenties when I wore baggy jeans, army boots, short hair etc — plus I’m nearly six foot tall), then there will be those who question (perhaps just in their own head; perhaps out loud; perhaps aggressively) which toilet/changing room you should be using. I really don’t know what the answer is, sadly.

The answer is that all trans women know full well that they were born male and, in more than 90% of cases, still have a penis.

Regardless of how well they believe they "pass", they know they they are male and they now know, even if they didn't know until a month ago, that they are not allowed in women's single sex spaces.

So if they continue to use women's spaces, even if they completely pass and no one notices (which is extremely unlikely because almost none of them pass), they still know they are breaking the law and disrespecting women.

What they can and should do is use the men's, and if anyone questions them they say, "I'm a trans woman, which means I am biologically male just like you, and so I am required to use this space in accordance with the law if there is no unisex alternative. I have as much right to be here as you do, please let me take a slash in peace."

And if they don't feel able to do that, they need to campaign for more additional unisex spaces.

In the meantime, if they feel there are no spaces they can use and feel forced to self exclude, that is not actually worse than women being forced to self exclude because their single sex spaces are not actually single sex. If you are bleating about trans people not being adequately provided for, you need to explain why you think it was fine for women not to be adequately provided for.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 09:30

BetterWithPockets · 16/05/2025 09:17

I’m not sure how much this contributes to the discussion, OP, but I was actually thinking about this last night, and my take on it is that, regardless of your biological gender, it all comes down to if you ‘pass’ as a woman. If you do, then no-one will bat an eye. If you don’t (and I’ve been mistaken for a man COUNTLESS times, especially in my late teens and early twenties when I wore baggy jeans, army boots, short hair etc — plus I’m nearly six foot tall), then there will be those who question (perhaps just in their own head; perhaps out loud; perhaps aggressively) which toilet/changing room you should be using. I really don’t know what the answer is, sadly.

Well if you are law abiding and don't want to be a boundary trespassing creep, there shouldn't be an issue. And we are told TW are not creeps or criminals, so why is this a problem?

The solution, as I think we might have mentioned, is additional third spaces, designated mixed sex. Literally for everyone, as inclusive as it gets. For some reason, there is no appetite among the TRA lobby for them. I've never seen a TRA call for them, just like I've never seen them direct any of their strategies towards encouraging men to welcome TW in their spaces. Why is that?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/05/2025 09:43

Great thread.
A disingenuous scenario
An absent OP
Sock puppets
TRA bingo (vulva checks anyone)?
Ignorance of the law.

And as usual - hundreds of articulate, knowledgable, insightful posts from women centring women and girls and their safety, privacy and dignity.

Fab Flowers

DeanElderberry · 16/05/2025 09:49

'Law abiding' is the main take away from this. There was some (deliberate) misunderstanding of the law over the last decade and a half. Now it has been clarified.

Everyone knows what their own gonads are, everyone knows what sex people with those gonads are, everyone now knows they should use the facilities - loos, changing rooms, swimming pools etc etc etc - for people of that sex.

No ambiguity, no need to look 'feminine'.

If we need a campaign to remind men to respect other men, then that's up to the men to organise.

RareGoalsVerge · 16/05/2025 09:50

Has anyone proposed a workable method by which Gary could be admitted whilst excluding Barry? I know the SC ruling is effectively that the law is currently that either both Gary and Barry are excluded and it's a single sex space or that both Gary and Barry are included and it's a mixed sex space. But that's the law as it stands now and new legislation could theoretically be proposed. Does a credible proposition for what that might be even exist? Trusting Barry to stay away, or asking each male person to promise on their honour that they are way more Gary than Barry, are obviously not a sensible solution, so I would really like to know from @Brigitte33 , @BisiBodi and anyone else who thinks we should be kinder to poor Gary, what is their alternative proposition? Are we supposed to pretend Barry doesn't exist?

CautiousLurker01 · 16/05/2025 10:02

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 21:49

So hang on.... just so I understand-
Some people on here are thinking that a trans woman would go through years, if not decades of denial / inner turmoil and questioning followed by months or years of anxiety & mental trauma for fear of judgement telling all those around them that they would like to transition and risking losing relationships / jobs etc etc ...........
....... all because they want to sneak into the loo or changing room on the off chance they might catch a glimpse of your flabby arse...?
Haha

Of course not - the TW I know who went through decades of psychotherapy and turmoil and then years of surgeries weren’t motivated by that at all, obviously.

However 95% of the TW we see in women’s bathrooms are not ‘those’ TW. They were Barry on Sunday night and woke up on Monday and decided to be Barbara. Sometimes, Like Eddie/Suzie Izzard, they will be their boy self by tea time. They are not post operative transexuals, they are AGPs with a fetish for invading women’s spaces.

BlueEyedBogWitch · 16/05/2025 10:08

they might catch a glimpse of your flabby arse

The hate and misogyny never fails to rear its head does it?

Just keep talking; you do our work for us.

Sortumn · 16/05/2025 11:05

We can't know who the Garys and Barrys that don't claim to be women are, until they show us. This is why we keep both Barrys and Garys out. I thought I worked with a Gary until one day he found himself with me in an empty kitchen and sexually assaulted me.

Gary and Barry don't change their spots just because they claim to be women.

illinivich · 16/05/2025 11:29

Call me a saggy arsed old cynic, but im not going to believe a man who is caught in the womens toilet has had years of inner turmoil to pluck up the courage to be there.

Especially when the years, if not decades of termoil all seemed to fade in about 2016 for every one of them. Regards if hes 26 or 76.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/05/2025 11:41

MyOliveHelper · 16/05/2025 07:55

It's so funny to come back to this thread after reading the other where people were saying that boys shouldn't wear hair clips.

Who on this thread thinks boys shouldn't wear hair clips?

ParmaVioletTea · 16/05/2025 11:48

Hairclips are very practical. If a boy needs his hair out of the way, a hair clip, or a few grips are excellent.

Meceme · 16/05/2025 11:53

David Beckham rocked his hair clips ... and his alice band.
Given the number of men rocking the man bun, I'm not sure hairstyles are a reliable determininer of sex or gender.
🤔