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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 20:45

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 15:43

There are whole threads where women have described their journey from so credulous our brains nearly dropped out, to stuffy old dinosaurs. Or frothing TERFS as you refer to some women. That doesn't happen overnight and It's nothing to do with age and everything to do with experience, instinct and rational thought.

The frothing I refer to is in relation to the complete lack of nuance and refusal to see that there is nuance and shades of grey in this debate.

I actually thought I might be a bit on the TERFY side, because I don’t think feminism applies to transwomen. Mainly because it’s a whole different experience growing up as a girl in this world, being socialised as a girl, going through puberty, dealing with all the patriarchal bullshit. I think it devalues the experiences of both sets of people.

My age and experience (thanks for the free patronising by the way, I usually have to take my car to a garage for that) of working with very vulnerable people has taught me it really is generally better to not be a shit about things. Rather hope I don’t grow out of that.

Arran2024 · 15/05/2025 20:46

Butterflybrain1 · 15/05/2025 20:34

I didn’t say that women shouldn’t have access to single sex provisions - that’s a total straw man. And I think you probably know it. And I think you probably also know why toilets are different to prisons and sexual assault services. I hope you’ve never had to access either, but I can assure you the vibe is very different to popping for a wee in M&S cafe. Nice try though.

While I agree that a person can’t change their biology, nobody is saying a trans woman is a woman according to the equality act or anything of the sort. But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against. I also appreciate that there are quite a large number of trans people who ‘pass’ - what do we do there then? Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now cos if so, I’m going to have to start paying more attention to my bikini line.

"Passing" is irrelevant. Most trans women who pass do so due to youth, which will fade. You can't reward the most dishonest behaviour by giving them special privileges. This leads to people wanting kids to have puberty blockers because it will help them pass.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 20:52

While I agree that a person can’t change their biology, nobody is saying a trans woman is a woman according to the equality act or anything of the sort. But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against.

Well that depends. If the transperson's biology is male then they can be discriminated against to keep them out of women's facilties. That's not disrespectful. Biologically male transpeople can insist on using the men's facilities and to be treated with respect in those facilities otherwise that would be illegal discrimination; and if for any reason that doesn't work then an employer would have to provide some kind of individual or unisex facility.

Same applies to transpeople with female biology, they can't use men's facilities and should be treated respectfully in women's facilities but additionally if they've been on cross-sex hormones and look / sound / etc so convincingly masculine that their presence is disturbing to other women then they could be excluded from both single-sex facilities, and then an individual or unisex facility would need to be provided for the transperson's privacy and respect.

As you can see, some effort and campaigning may be needed to make sure these additional unisex facilities exist for everyone who needs them. So transpeople shouldn't waste energy trying to get into wrong-sex facilities. That door is now closed.

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 20:57

Butterflybrain1 · 15/05/2025 20:34

I didn’t say that women shouldn’t have access to single sex provisions - that’s a total straw man. And I think you probably know it. And I think you probably also know why toilets are different to prisons and sexual assault services. I hope you’ve never had to access either, but I can assure you the vibe is very different to popping for a wee in M&S cafe. Nice try though.

While I agree that a person can’t change their biology, nobody is saying a trans woman is a woman according to the equality act or anything of the sort. But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against. I also appreciate that there are quite a large number of trans people who ‘pass’ - what do we do there then? Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now cos if so, I’m going to have to start paying more attention to my bikini line.

@SternJoyousBee was replying to @Frazzled83 . Why has @Butterflybrain1 replied as if they are @Frazzled83 ???

bumblingbovine49 · 15/05/2025 20:59

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 09:38

Nope, that man was standing up for women. Too few men would have the guts to call out (in this case, he was wrong though) men. I thank him for defending women. He is a hero in my book.

I am afraid we will just have to respectfully disagree on that. If I want a man's help, I will ask for it. Or he could check with me first that I'd like some help before wading in.

Obviously if I am in imminent physical danger from a man acting aggressively then any help from anyone is gratefully received but if a man comes wading into a female space shouting the odds without checking that the women in that space want or need his help, then in my opinion he is just behaving like all entitled men have throughout history.

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 21:00

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 20:45

The frothing I refer to is in relation to the complete lack of nuance and refusal to see that there is nuance and shades of grey in this debate.

I actually thought I might be a bit on the TERFY side, because I don’t think feminism applies to transwomen. Mainly because it’s a whole different experience growing up as a girl in this world, being socialised as a girl, going through puberty, dealing with all the patriarchal bullshit. I think it devalues the experiences of both sets of people.

My age and experience (thanks for the free patronising by the way, I usually have to take my car to a garage for that) of working with very vulnerable people has taught me it really is generally better to not be a shit about things. Rather hope I don’t grow out of that.

Noted

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 21:05

@Butterflybrain1 You have one post on this thread, so how could SternJoyousBee be replying to something you said?

ThatsNotMyTeen · 15/05/2025 21:10

Right, so because one very obvious woman was assumed wrongly to be a man, that means it’s OK for men to go into women’s toilets? Is that what you’re saying?

Also, there’s no such thing as a “cis woman”

potpourree · 15/05/2025 21:12

I still haven't had an answer as to whether a person who doesn't consider that sexes even "match" gender identities can be trans or cis, in a TRA's view?

They never actually say which genders are supposed to match each biological sex.

If you are a nonbinary female, is that one of the "matching" pairs of gender-sex, or not? What about a male demi-boy?

If they could list the identities that they consider genders - man, woman, and whatever else - and tell us which sexes they think they align with, that would clear up a lot of the confusion.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 21:22

Butterflybrain1 · 15/05/2025 20:34

I didn’t say that women shouldn’t have access to single sex provisions - that’s a total straw man. And I think you probably know it. And I think you probably also know why toilets are different to prisons and sexual assault services. I hope you’ve never had to access either, but I can assure you the vibe is very different to popping for a wee in M&S cafe. Nice try though.

While I agree that a person can’t change their biology, nobody is saying a trans woman is a woman according to the equality act or anything of the sort. But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against. I also appreciate that there are quite a large number of trans people who ‘pass’ - what do we do there then? Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now cos if so, I’m going to have to start paying more attention to my bikini line.

Name change fail?

“I didn’t say that women shouldn’t have access to single sex provisions - that’s a total straw man. And I think you probably know it.”

Toilets are either single sex-single, single use or unisex. There is no facility for females and men who want to be women.

I can tick “straw man” from my bingo card so thanks for that.

“And I think you probably also know why toilets are different to prisons and sexual assault services. I hope you’ve never had to access either, but I can assure you the vibe is very different to popping for a wee in M&S cafe. Nice try though.”

And I think you probably know why someone cannot be a woman in some settings and not in others. That is nonsensical, incoherent and ludicrous. The very same women who need to be confident that they can access single sex rape crisis services ( why downgrade to sexual assault? ) are the same women who probably also want to be certain that there are no men in the public loos they use. Are we dismissing the evidence that has already been posted about how females are harmed by unisex facilties?

”But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against”

talk about a straw man argument. Of course trans people are human beings! And the EA 2010 provides protection against discrimination. But that protection doesn’t mean that we cannot say “no” to Transwomen using female single sex services and facilties.

“I also appreciate that there are quite a large number of trans people who ‘pass’ - what do we do there then?”

Why can’t trans people just follow the rules? Are you saying they cannot be trusted to comply and follow the same rules as the rest of society?
And don’t you see how ridiculous and unfair it would be to have laws based on “passing”? What about the Transwomen who don’t transition until late in life and will never ‘pass’. Are you suggesting they should be treated less favourably to other Transwomen?

”Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now cos if so, I’m going to have to start paying more attention to my bikini line.”

Are you on glue? What a weird statement.

Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 21:27

@potpourree

I suspect they would tell you that it's up to every individual to decide for themselves whether they are trans or not. Which of course means that you could have two people in the exact same situation, with one identifying as trans and the other not...

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 21:32

*”But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against”

The Equality Act is clear that men who identify as women must not be discriminated against compared to other MEN.

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 21:32

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 20:57

@SternJoyousBee was replying to @Frazzled83 . Why has @Butterflybrain1 replied as if they are @Frazzled83 ???

Because mumsnet logged me under a different username for reasons I cannot explain. I identify as both 🤷🏼‍♀️😂

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 21:38

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 21:32

Because mumsnet logged me under a different username for reasons I cannot explain. I identify as both 🤷🏼‍♀️😂

You cannot change username on a thread you have already posted on. How strange

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 21:39

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 21:22

Name change fail?

“I didn’t say that women shouldn’t have access to single sex provisions - that’s a total straw man. And I think you probably know it.”

Toilets are either single sex-single, single use or unisex. There is no facility for females and men who want to be women.

I can tick “straw man” from my bingo card so thanks for that.

“And I think you probably also know why toilets are different to prisons and sexual assault services. I hope you’ve never had to access either, but I can assure you the vibe is very different to popping for a wee in M&S cafe. Nice try though.”

And I think you probably know why someone cannot be a woman in some settings and not in others. That is nonsensical, incoherent and ludicrous. The very same women who need to be confident that they can access single sex rape crisis services ( why downgrade to sexual assault? ) are the same women who probably also want to be certain that there are no men in the public loos they use. Are we dismissing the evidence that has already been posted about how females are harmed by unisex facilties?

”But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against”

talk about a straw man argument. Of course trans people are human beings! And the EA 2010 provides protection against discrimination. But that protection doesn’t mean that we cannot say “no” to Transwomen using female single sex services and facilties.

“I also appreciate that there are quite a large number of trans people who ‘pass’ - what do we do there then?”

Why can’t trans people just follow the rules? Are you saying they cannot be trusted to comply and follow the same rules as the rest of society?
And don’t you see how ridiculous and unfair it would be to have laws based on “passing”? What about the Transwomen who don’t transition until late in life and will never ‘pass’. Are you suggesting they should be treated less favourably to other Transwomen?

”Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now cos if so, I’m going to have to start paying more attention to my bikini line.”

Are you on glue? What a weird statement.

It’s not weird at all though is it? Who’s gonna check? Or do we all get to just shout at random people who don’t look feminine enough for us?

And it absolutely was a straw man argument. You went off about me saying people shouldn’t have access to single sex spaces when I never said that. Which is the definition of a straw man. Even more ridiculous considering I believe very strongly that people should have access to these.

And I didn’t ‘downgrade’ to SA from rape, I extended it because I think that it’s wider than “just” rape and I thought that would be more inclusive. Good to know there’s a hierarchy though. I’ll keep that in mind.

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 21:49

So hang on.... just so I understand-
Some people on here are thinking that a trans woman would go through years, if not decades of denial / inner turmoil and questioning followed by months or years of anxiety & mental trauma for fear of judgement telling all those around them that they would like to transition and risking losing relationships / jobs etc etc ...........
....... all because they want to sneak into the loo or changing room on the off chance they might catch a glimpse of your flabby arse...?
Haha

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 21:52

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 21:49

So hang on.... just so I understand-
Some people on here are thinking that a trans woman would go through years, if not decades of denial / inner turmoil and questioning followed by months or years of anxiety & mental trauma for fear of judgement telling all those around them that they would like to transition and risking losing relationships / jobs etc etc ...........
....... all because they want to sneak into the loo or changing room on the off chance they might catch a glimpse of your flabby arse...?
Haha

Nobody has said that.

I don't really care why people transition. It's not relevant to anything.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 21:52

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 21:38

You cannot change username on a thread you have already posted on. How strange

Can't you? I certainly have in the past.

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 21:54

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 21:52

Can't you? I certainly have in the past.

I've just tried it. I'd have to have a second account and log in as that.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 21:55

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 21:39

It’s not weird at all though is it? Who’s gonna check? Or do we all get to just shout at random people who don’t look feminine enough for us?

And it absolutely was a straw man argument. You went off about me saying people shouldn’t have access to single sex spaces when I never said that. Which is the definition of a straw man. Even more ridiculous considering I believe very strongly that people should have access to these.

And I didn’t ‘downgrade’ to SA from rape, I extended it because I think that it’s wider than “just” rape and I thought that would be more inclusive. Good to know there’s a hierarchy though. I’ll keep that in mind.

You started off by talking about defending poor fragile Transwomen from frothing TERFs in the public loos.

Toilets are a distraction. A person cannot be a woman in one setting and a man in another.

No one is going to police toilets. No one is going to conduct genital inspections 🙄

But do you honestly think we can legislate to allow Transwomen in women’s toilets and still class them as a single sex space? Trans people should just follow the rules that the rest of us are expected to follow. It’s the social contract. Or again, are trans people people untrustworthy and unable to follow the same rules as the rest of us?

Do you want to keep toilets single sex or not?

zerofeeling · 15/05/2025 21:56

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 21:49

So hang on.... just so I understand-
Some people on here are thinking that a trans woman would go through years, if not decades of denial / inner turmoil and questioning followed by months or years of anxiety & mental trauma for fear of judgement telling all those around them that they would like to transition and risking losing relationships / jobs etc etc ...........
....... all because they want to sneak into the loo or changing room on the off chance they might catch a glimpse of your flabby arse...?
Haha

A lot of 'transwomen' haven't done any of that. Personally I don't care what their reasons are, I just want female spaces to be protected. Also there's no such thing as 'cis' women.

Seethlaw · 15/05/2025 21:57

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 21:49

So hang on.... just so I understand-
Some people on here are thinking that a trans woman would go through years, if not decades of denial / inner turmoil and questioning followed by months or years of anxiety & mental trauma for fear of judgement telling all those around them that they would like to transition and risking losing relationships / jobs etc etc ...........
....... all because they want to sneak into the loo or changing room on the off chance they might catch a glimpse of your flabby arse...?
Haha

Why are you assuming that everyone who identifies as a trans woman would necessarily go through any of those steps?

Becoming a trans person is as simple as saying, "I'm trans." No need for turmoil or anything.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 21:58

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 21:54

I've just tried it. I'd have to have a second account and log in as that.

Oh you're right, you can't do it anymore. They must have changed the site settings.

I did it in the past once for a joke.

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 21:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 21:58

Oh you're right, you can't do it anymore. They must have changed the site settings.

I did it in the past once for a joke.

Edited

It kinda makes sense. Otherwise you could end up arguing with yourself😂

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 21:59

Brigitte33 · 15/05/2025 21:49

So hang on.... just so I understand-
Some people on here are thinking that a trans woman would go through years, if not decades of denial / inner turmoil and questioning followed by months or years of anxiety & mental trauma for fear of judgement telling all those around them that they would like to transition and risking losing relationships / jobs etc etc ...........
....... all because they want to sneak into the loo or changing room on the off chance they might catch a glimpse of your flabby arse...?
Haha

No

Most people here know that transwomen, no matter how much effort or how little, no matter how much dysphoria or euphoria, are men. And men don’t belong in female single sex spaces.

😂😂

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