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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
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7
DeanElderberry · 15/05/2025 16:33

I wonder why I was deleted?

Was it my querying the specifying of busy loos when we're being told how safe loos are, and contrasting them with the many non-busy ones I've been it.

I didn't mention the time my colleague was assaulted in the loos at work, but did mention the many ways male obsessions with loos can play out dangerously for women.

Or are we supposed to pretend things like this don't happen?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg586rzv2ymo

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/man-who-filmed-nine-women-and-young-girl-using-public-toilets-across-glasgow-jailed

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12145307/Pervert-21-secretly-recorded-women-urinating-toilet-cubicle-avoids-jail.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/home-bargains-pervert-unmasked-after-24590656

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/home-bargains-pervert-unmasked-after-24590656

Or just to pretend that the hundreds of similar reports don't make it very obvious why women think males (all males, including the ones who don't behave like that) would be kept out of women's facilities.

nutmeg7 · 15/05/2025 16:33

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:23

I'm not male.

I also didn't invent the word. Look it up in any dictionary.

yawn

Kucinghitam · 15/05/2025 16:34

Trans/Cisgender in genderism is equivalent to Believer/Heretic (or Saved/Damned) in conventional religion.

If one does not adhere to any forms of religion or psedoreligion, one does not acknowledge the special language. As an atheist of both gender and religion, I am neither Cisgender nor a Heretic, and both words can

FOTTFSOFATFOSM.

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 16:37

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:15

A cisgender person just means someone who isn't trans. HTH

Can't you see how that terminology is totally centring the person with the trans identity...and actual women are only women in relation to the person with the trans identity. Side-lining women totally from their own essential existence.

Women are Women. There is no category of woman that requires a prefix.

Transwomen are male; a category of man, not of woman.

NImumconfused · 15/05/2025 16:40

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 16:37

Can't you see how that terminology is totally centring the person with the trans identity...and actual women are only women in relation to the person with the trans identity. Side-lining women totally from their own essential existence.

Women are Women. There is no category of woman that requires a prefix.

Transwomen are male; a category of man, not of woman.

Of course they can, that's exactly why they do it. Because transwomen (being men) are obviously more important that the boring ordinary sort of women.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 16:41

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:15

A cisgender person just means someone who isn't trans. HTH

Why do we need a word for that?

Kucinghitam · 15/05/2025 16:41

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 16:37

Can't you see how that terminology is totally centring the person with the trans identity...and actual women are only women in relation to the person with the trans identity. Side-lining women totally from their own essential existence.

Women are Women. There is no category of woman that requires a prefix.

Transwomen are male; a category of man, not of woman.

This is dear old Chris you are talking to... there was always ever going to be only one sacred caste that Chris totally centres.

EvelynBeatrice · 15/05/2025 16:41

I always try hard to be measured and fair. I have compassion for any young person particularly who says they are born in the wrong body. But everyone else has rights too.

So here it is. TRAs and their allies will NEVER be able to persuade mothers who have thought about this whole issue (and who have healthy boundaries uninfringed by abuse or misogyny) that men or male teenagers they don’t know (however such men identify, whatever they feel, however they dress, however much surgery they have had) should be given the benefit of the doubt and be permitted to be in the same private or semi private space with the mothers unaccompanied undressed female children. No.

You’re up against the most fierce and basic of human instincts - the drive to protect your children. Remember most women by the time they’re mothers will have experienced a lifetime of sexual harassment ranging from the greatest severity such as rape down to unpleasant and unwelcome comments and insults from men. Not all men, no, but always men.

We know that our children - and we - are safer in all female spaces when we’re vulnerable.

And it’s not just safety. I mentioned strangers above. But we also have an unbuilt sense of privacy from puberty and often before that drives us to segregate ourselves in single sex groups when undressing for example. I might share a shop changing room with my mother, daughter, female friend - I wouldn’t do so with a male friend or relative, however beloved or trusted.

Maybe one day humanity will evolve such that male violence will end and men will cease to be a threat to women. If that is the case, it’s likely that mixed sex spaces would become a comfortable norm. Until that day , we will keep fighting for single sex facilities.

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/05/2025 16:41

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:23

I'm not male.

I also didn't invent the word. Look it up in any dictionary.

It's prefix, a qualifier. Suggesting that women are but one type of woman; that there are other types. But there aren't. A woman is an adult human female, and as such has total integrity in her own right. No qualifiers needed.

'The terminology' of 'cis' only wioks if you embrace the whole of the ideological set up that surrounds it.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 16:42

On the one hand, rights are not pie. On the other hand, your right to swing your fist stops at my nose.

Choose your truism.

Kucinghitam · 15/05/2025 16:42

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 16:32

It's interesting that you've made the "rights are not pie" argument in a context where it is clear that rights are in fact pie.

The most obvious example of this is in a women's sporting category. Say it's a swim meet, there are 8 lanes in a swimming pool and Lia Thomas is in one of them. The swimming pool is a pie cut into 8 pieces, and because Lia Thomas got one of those pieces, there's a female swimmer out there who failed to qualify and didn't get a piece of pie.

The pie analogy is less obvious when it comes to female only spaces, but I think it still kind of works. Imagine that you are at a pizza party. One person is vegetarian and another is Jewish. A kosher pizza with no meat products has been provided for them. Someone else at the party who is not vegetarian or Jewish likes the look of that pizza so they cut themselves a slice, using a pizza cutter which has already been used to cut the pepperoni pizzas.

On a basic level, there is now less pizza for the vegetarian and the Jewish person, because someone has taken a slice of their pizza and the other pizzas are not suitable for them. (Applying this analogy to toilets, when male people use female only toilets they are putting additional strain on women's facilities, when women are already underprovided for compared to men.) But on a more fundamental level, the pizza is no longer suitable for the two people it was intended for. The vegetarian might go ahead and eat the pizza anyway, despite not being thrilled about the fact that it has been contaminated with pepperoni. (The vegetarian in this analogy is a regular woman who will grit her teeth and use the women's toilets anyway, despite feeling uncomfortable about there being a trans woman in there.) But the Jewish person now cannot eat that pizza and will have to either go hungry, or go and source themselves some alternative food elsewhere. (The Jewish person in this analogy is the woman who needs single sex spaces, whether for religious reasons or due to past trauma, and will self exclude from women's spaces if they are not guaranteed to be single sex.)

So rights are in fact pie, and if we want to ensure that women are still getting their fair share of the pie, Gary who now identifies as Sally and doesn't want to eat the men's pie needs to get his own pie.

I also find it immensely frustrating when people say they don't want Gary to just put a dress on and use the women's toilets, but that "real" trans women have every right to do this. There is no way to distinguish between a "real" trans woman and Gary who is just wearing a dress. There is no purity test, no form of ID, no one checking genitals or gender recognition certificates on toilet doors. Either you say no males in women only spaces, regardless of what surgery they have had or whether they have a gender recognition certificate and really really believe they feel like women inside, or you have to let Gary who is just wearing a dress in.

You remind me a little of a close friend of mine who once said to me in a rather upset tone of voice, "I think everyone should be able to use the spaces where they feel safe and comfortable."

Where do women get to feel safe and comfortable?

Are we really supposed to feel safe and comfortable taking our clothes off next to the kind of people who march through the streets of Manchester carrying placards threatening violence against TERFs, or who deface the statue of Millicent Fawcett and throw bottles of their own piss all over the steps to the Equality and Human Rights Commission?

Am I being bigoted if I say I don't want those people in my rape crisis group?

What about the kind of trans identified men who fetishise periods and tampons?

Is it wrong for me not to want to risk encountering one of them at the sink when I'm washing blood off my hands after emptying my mooncup or (and this has happened to me twice) having a miscarriage?

I feel safest and most comfortable when I'm allowed to pee and get changed away from men, however they believe they identify. And I don't understand why any woman thinks my right to feel safe and comfortable is less important than that of a trans woman. Any trans woman. Even one of the nice ones.

Because if your position really is that in cases where the needs of a female woman and a male woman come into conflict, the needs of the male woman take priority, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and examine why you think that. I suspect the real reason why so many people think their needs should take priority is because we all know they are men and we have been socially conditioned from birth to prioritise men's needs above our own.

Edited

This is absolutely brilliant and needs bumping!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 16:43

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 16:42

On the one hand, rights are not pie. On the other hand, your right to swing your fist stops at my nose.

Choose your truism.

Rights are pie. Sometimes you need to get more pie rather than forcing other people to share theirs to the point where they go hungry.

Annoyedone · 15/05/2025 16:44

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:15

A cisgender person just means someone who isn't trans. HTH

Oooh the transphobia here!!! You’ve been asked repeatedly to stop using that offensive and transphobic word! Why do you persist in doing so? I thought you were an ally?

DeanElderberry · 15/05/2025 16:45

Chris talking 'cis' is intended to derail the discussion. Something was being said that Chris disapproved of.

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 16:46

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:23

I'm not male.

I also didn't invent the word. Look it up in any dictionary.

You perpetuate gender woo, the idea that male and female are undefined states of mind, so telling us you aren't male means absolutely nothing.

But if you want to talk about words with meaning that we didn't invent, guess where we're going to suggest you start?

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 16:50

EvelynBeatrice · 15/05/2025 16:41

I always try hard to be measured and fair. I have compassion for any young person particularly who says they are born in the wrong body. But everyone else has rights too.

So here it is. TRAs and their allies will NEVER be able to persuade mothers who have thought about this whole issue (and who have healthy boundaries uninfringed by abuse or misogyny) that men or male teenagers they don’t know (however such men identify, whatever they feel, however they dress, however much surgery they have had) should be given the benefit of the doubt and be permitted to be in the same private or semi private space with the mothers unaccompanied undressed female children. No.

You’re up against the most fierce and basic of human instincts - the drive to protect your children. Remember most women by the time they’re mothers will have experienced a lifetime of sexual harassment ranging from the greatest severity such as rape down to unpleasant and unwelcome comments and insults from men. Not all men, no, but always men.

We know that our children - and we - are safer in all female spaces when we’re vulnerable.

And it’s not just safety. I mentioned strangers above. But we also have an unbuilt sense of privacy from puberty and often before that drives us to segregate ourselves in single sex groups when undressing for example. I might share a shop changing room with my mother, daughter, female friend - I wouldn’t do so with a male friend or relative, however beloved or trusted.

Maybe one day humanity will evolve such that male violence will end and men will cease to be a threat to women. If that is the case, it’s likely that mixed sex spaces would become a comfortable norm. Until that day , we will keep fighting for single sex facilities.

👏not only this but we mothers can see the danger to our own pre-teen and teen children and also their friends of being sent down a dangerous and futile rabbit hole.

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/05/2025 16:55

Not just mothers. I have no maternal instincts but I’ve been actively fighting this since 2018.

IllustratedDictionaryOfTheDoldrums · 15/05/2025 16:55

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:15

A cisgender person just means someone who isn't trans. HTH

Ah, but then you have to describe trans so you can work out who is cis and suddenly you're neck deep in gender stereotypes and it's pretty clear why no woman in her right mind would want to be called cis. Gender is a regressive concept.

CantStopMoving · 15/05/2025 16:56

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 11:46

He was defending women's spaces! I am grateful for men like him! There are too few of them. We need more men to step up.

I wonder though if it a double bluff to make a point though. Assuming that the story is true He knew she wasn’t a man but decided to go nuclear on her so that he could make a point why you can’t tell. She is so clearly obviously a women I just can’t see how this story checks out in any other way than he was a TRA trying to create drama.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 16:57

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 14:24

It’s really interesting reading these responses to an article that I think was compassionate and measured. I didn’t see any ageism there. I’m only in my 40s and I’m WELL aware I’m not as in sync with youth culture because I’m getting to be a bit of an old fart. The same as I realise me and my octogenarian relatives are probably not going to see eye to eye on somethings. That’s not me being ageist, that’s an acknowledgement of how culture and ideas change over time.

I’m definitely not a trans activist and I think having clarity in law about the definition of a woman is helpful. I think the bit people seem to have forgotten is that rights are not pie and it’s not ‘you’ have them or ‘we’ have them. Protecting natal born women’s rights doesn’t make being trans any less of a protected characteristic. Sure if Gary the builder buys a frock on and calls himself Sally, I don’t want to be in the toilet with him. But that’s not a trans woman. That’s Gary being a creepy dude. I think things had gone too far in terms of anyone can self identify as a woman and automatically have access to single sex spaces and we’ve seen a very small number of cases where men have exploited that. Men. Not trans women. Men. But I also know I’d do anything I could to protect a trans woman trying to have a wee in peace and being set upon by frothing TERFs. The reality is, we need more unisex spaces so people can have a choice. I also think the toilet fascination is weird. I don’t know what’s happening in the toilets you’re all frequenting, but I’m popping into a cubicle, locking the door and having a wee. I’m certainly not undressing or getting my bits out by the sinks. A busy public loo is a low risk environment. Rape centres, prisons, hospitals - all much more valid arguments and require careful thought, probably on a case by case basis. The ruling just means nobody has an automatic right to access single sex spaces, it’s not a call to arms to be a prick for the sake of it.

I wonder if there's such a thing as internalised ageism? Like internalised racism, and internalised misogyny, and internalised homophobia.

Age brings wisdom, and knowledge, and experience. And courage. It's been older women fighting this battle. It brings emabarrassing traits too, like being an old fart, and another embarrassing trait is the urge to be Down Wiv Da Yoof. Avoid both.

if Gary the builder buys a frock on and calls himself Sally, I don’t want to be in the toilet with him. But that’s not a trans woman. That’s Gary being a creepy dude.

How do you know the difference between Gary the creep and a transwoman? Even a professional diagnosis of gender dysphoria doesn't tell you because someone who looks talks and acts exactly like Gary could have a diagnosis. A diagnosis is not a "fit and proper person" test.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 15/05/2025 16:58

Hey @Christinapple Welcome back. I thought that you had disappeared a few days ago as when after a bit of your usual TERF-scolding you swerved the invitation to comment on this post. Never mind. Better late than never. Here is your opportunity to let us know your opinion.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5333483-fury-re-womens-spaceseadarlington-nurses

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 17:02

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 16:57

I wonder if there's such a thing as internalised ageism? Like internalised racism, and internalised misogyny, and internalised homophobia.

Age brings wisdom, and knowledge, and experience. And courage. It's been older women fighting this battle. It brings emabarrassing traits too, like being an old fart, and another embarrassing trait is the urge to be Down Wiv Da Yoof. Avoid both.

if Gary the builder buys a frock on and calls himself Sally, I don’t want to be in the toilet with him. But that’s not a trans woman. That’s Gary being a creepy dude.

How do you know the difference between Gary the creep and a transwoman? Even a professional diagnosis of gender dysphoria doesn't tell you because someone who looks talks and acts exactly like Gary could have a diagnosis. A diagnosis is not a "fit and proper person" test.

It doesn't matter whether Gary has a diagnosis or not because no one is checking Gary's medical records on the toilet door.

I know someone who transitioned over 20 years ago and used an inheritance to pay for genital surgery in their late teens. They would have first gone to a gender clinic in the very early 2000s and even back then (according to this person's mother) you could find all the correct answers to the questions they would ask you to diagnose gender dysphoria on internet forums. So it has never been impossible for Gary the AGP to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

RedToothBrush · 15/05/2025 17:10

How do we know which people are trans and which are not trans, without acknowledging sex?

Answers on a postcard.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 17:15

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 17:02

It doesn't matter whether Gary has a diagnosis or not because no one is checking Gary's medical records on the toilet door.

I know someone who transitioned over 20 years ago and used an inheritance to pay for genital surgery in their late teens. They would have first gone to a gender clinic in the very early 2000s and even back then (according to this person's mother) you could find all the correct answers to the questions they would ask you to diagnose gender dysphoria on internet forums. So it has never been impossible for Gary the AGP to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Edited

That is all true but my point was more that people - women - get false reassurance from diagnosis. Or rather from the idea of diagnosis. People imagine that experts wouldn't give such a diagnosis to someone violent, dangerous or abusive. But they did and they do. The diagnosis is only for the individual - it's meant to benefit the patient, not their family, not the women they encounter.

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