SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

[BisiBodi]

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

ITS A TRAP

Because you read it, and then you have to go back and read it again, and then you can never leave, and suddenly it's 2052 and humans have been replaced by faulty AI bots and I'm actually in a nursing home drinking soya chocolate through a straw.

Jason Momoa could definitely pass- he has long hair!

OP:
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans.
Haven't RTFT. I struggled past the first use of 'cis'. I noted that a man was being a dickhead. And then this...
Pretty much gave up at that point. I'm pushing 60. I don't 'misunderstand'. I know (and have hosted) trans people. But I'm very aware of the risks to women's safety and opportunities inherent I'm currently trans ideology. I'm horrified by what is done to children, teenagers and vulnerable young adults in the name of this ideology.

So - and I mean this kindly* - perhaps treat people older than you like fully sentient, alert, aware and intelligent human beings.

Plus, you don't seem to have much (any) hard evidence that the Supreme Court ruling had any impact here. Men will act like dickheads without any encouragement.

*You might find this a bit patronising when it's aimed at you.

What's your thinking here, OP? Are you saying that because this bloke was rude and inappropriate to Caz (who clearly looks female), that men should be allowed into the women's loos in case any woman should have to explain she's female? Why?

I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans.

Who exactly is the 'much older cis community', OP, and where do they hang out?

Do you mean the vast majority of the UK population, who, time and time again in polls are shown to support single sex spaces?

I'll tell you something there's no misunderstanding about - the official statistics showing women are vastly more likely to be sexually assaulted in mixed-sex toilets and changing areas. And the stats that show 98% of sex offences are carried out by males. And the official figures that demonstrate that trans women are MORE likely, statistically, to offend sexually than non-trans identified males.

See, you can understand someone's feelings, wants and beliefs all you like, but feelings aren't facts. And official policy and law, particularly concerning safety and equality, needs to be grounded in facts, not feelings or false beliefs.

We did have someone the other day who was very open about the fact that they'd pulled their entire post out of ChatGPT's bottom. This, apparently, made US look silly.

Three posts from the OP, none of which have any merit, insight, value, or even an actual gotcha. Spectacular fail, a sight to behold.

And In this instance, it wouldn't even appear to be that.

'Men get aggressive, so you should let them in your spaces' appears to be the argument.

It's just bonkers 😃

It's better a few women get inconvenienced by people checking males use the toilets unchallenged. I'd think of it as the equivalent of a challenge 25 policy for alcohol.

If Caz is a 'butch presenting woman's who supports sexist ideas that a woman is anyone who wears a dress, then logically she's not really got much of a complaint because she's failing to identify as the gender she presents as.

If she believes in gender woo, then she understands that the minute someone cross dresses they become trans. Cos Stonewall says so. And since she's cross dressing as a man, why is she surprised that she's being identified as a man. Cos naturally no one can tell the sex of someone once they cross dress.

Or she could stop being a wally, and think about why other women who have a similar appearance thought it was all a load of bollocks and reflect on why we are at the point we are now.

The last time I was IDed I was 35.

The most embarrassing occasion was when I was 31 and out with an 18 year old.

They let in the 18 year old without asking for ID. I was the only one in the group who was stopped.

It is really bloody annoying having to always carry ID when your mates don't and they laugh at you.

But I totally get why it's a rule

(FWIW I don't believe I look that young btw. I just think that I'm an easier target to challenge than a strapping 6'"2' lad because of power dynamics rather than my actual appearance. Then staff can go 'oh well I do challenge people').

I suspect some tra’s or women hating men are deliberately targeting women who do not fit gender stereotypes.

in all the supposed times this has happened it’s always been men who have accused woman of being a man. I really do believe that this will be a clear ploy of many trans activists.

coincidentally almost all of the supposed woman who have been called men - have appeared to be women who believe men should be in women’s spaces.

make of that what you will.

My hair is similar to Caz’s. I’m older and uglier but I’m still a woman. I’ve occasionally been called sir, but life goes on, I’ve survived worse attacks.

The only reason we are in a place like this is because trans ideology has taught people that to be a man you need short hair and masculine clothes, to be a woman you need long hair, a skirt, perhaps a bit of lippy. Lots of people seem to have forgotten how to recognise someone’s sex. From a safeguarding point of view this is terrifying. From an evolutionary perspective it makes me wonder where we’re headed, I mean presumably Neanderthals, not as intelligent as modern humans, recognised the sex of their friends easily enough. Where will this leave us? How will our ancestors look back on us? The Great Age of Stupid?

Let’s just work together to scrap cis from the world, and gender. Both pointless and bring nothing but harm.

I've got them out to stop an overtired and hungry infant son then used them to feed him but never, personally, thought about releasing my bosoms as a method of male crowd control.
Perhaps that's where I've been going wrong... 🤔

There are whole threads where women have described their journey from so credulous our brains nearly dropped out, to stuffy old dinosaurs. Or frothing TERFS as you refer to some women. That doesn't happen overnight and It's nothing to do with age and everything to do with experience, instinct and rational thought.

@Frazzled83 A public loo did not turn out to be a low risk environment for Katie Dolatowski's victims.

Under Stonewall's definition, Gary had just as much right to be there as any "real" transwoman (which in reality turned out to be no right at all). And how exactly are we supposed to know which ones are really trans when they turn up at the door if the ladies toilets?

This is why women have fought back on single sex spaces if all varieties, not just toilet, because if you let one man in, you can't keep any of them out.

Edited for typos

Actually a public toilet is one place where women are in a state of undress. It’s a place where a female has her pants around her ankles and as such is in a much more vulnerable position if someone were to gain access. As much as some are ‘well they are just toilets’ there are obvious reasons why they are an issue.

A cisgender person just means someone who isn't trans. HTH

‘Cisgender’ is a term used by believers in Gender Ideology whose numbers are reducing by the minute as people realise what a load of regressive bollocks it is.

HTH

You mean man or woman instead of transman or transwoman. This cis part is not needed.

I'm not male.

I also didn't invent the word. Look it up in any dictionary.

Yes you are.

I didn't say you invented it - I said women are not a subset and so it's not needed. Woman/women - that's all.

It's interesting that you've made the "rights are not pie" argument in a context where it is clear that rights are in fact pie.

The most obvious example of this is in a women's sporting category. Say it's a swim meet, there are 8 lanes in a swimming pool and Lia Thomas is in one of them. The swimming pool is a pie cut into 8 pieces, and because Lia Thomas got one of those pieces, there's a female swimmer out there who failed to qualify and didn't get a piece of pie.

The pie analogy is less obvious when it comes to female only spaces, but I think it still kind of works. Imagine that you are at a pizza party. One person is vegetarian and another is Jewish. A kosher pizza with no meat products has been provided for them. Someone else at the party who is not vegetarian or Jewish likes the look of that pizza so they cut themselves a slice, using a pizza cutter which has already been used to cut the pepperoni pizzas.

On a basic level, there is now less pizza for the vegetarian and the Jewish person, because someone has taken a slice of their pizza and the other pizzas are not suitable for them. (Applying this analogy to toilets, when male people use female only toilets they are putting additional strain on women's facilities, when women are already underprovided for compared to men.) But on a more fundamental level, the pizza is no longer suitable for the two people it was intended for. The vegetarian might go ahead and eat the pizza anyway, despite not being thrilled about the fact that it has been contaminated with pepperoni. (The vegetarian in this analogy is a regular woman who will grit her teeth and use the women's toilets anyway, despite feeling uncomfortable about there being a trans woman in there.) But the Jewish person now cannot eat that pizza and will have to either go hungry, or go and source themselves some alternative food elsewhere. (The Jewish person in this analogy is the woman who needs single sex spaces, whether for religious reasons or due to past trauma, and will self exclude from women's spaces if they are not guaranteed to be single sex.)

So rights are in fact pie, and if we want to ensure that women are still getting their fair share of the pie, Gary who now identifies as Sally and doesn't want to eat the men's pie needs to get his own pie.

I also find it immensely frustrating when people say they don't want Gary to just put a dress on and use the women's toilets, but that "real" trans women have every right to do this. There is no way to distinguish between a "real" trans woman and Gary who is just wearing a dress. There is no purity test, no form of ID, no one checking genitals or gender recognition certificates on toilet doors. Either you say no males in women only spaces, regardless of what surgery they have had or whether they have a gender recognition certificate and really really believe they feel like women inside, or you have to let Gary who is just wearing a dress in.

You remind me a little of a close friend of mine who once said to me in a rather upset tone of voice, "I think everyone should be able to use the spaces where they feel safe and comfortable."

Where do women get to feel safe and comfortable?

Are we really supposed to feel safe and comfortable taking our clothes off next to the kind of people who march through the streets of Manchester carrying placards threatening violence against TERFs, or who deface the statue of Millicent Fawcett and throw bottles of their own piss all over the steps to the Equality and Human Rights Commission?

Am I being bigoted if I say I don't want those people in my rape crisis group?

What about the kind of trans identified men who fetishise periods and tampons?

Is it wrong for me not to want to risk encountering one of them at the sink when I'm washing blood off my hands after emptying my mooncup or (and this has happened to me twice) having a miscarriage?

I feel safest and most comfortable when I'm allowed to pee and get changed away from men, however they believe they identify. And I don't understand why any woman thinks my right to feel safe and comfortable is less important than that of a trans woman. Any trans woman. Even one of the nice ones.

Because if your position really is that in cases where the needs of a female woman and a male woman come into conflict, the needs of the male woman take priority, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and examine why you think that. I suspect the real reason why so many people think their needs should take priority is because we all know they are men and we have been socially conditioned from birth to prioritise men's needs above our own.