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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/05/2025 10:17

I stopped reading after ‘cis’ and scrolled down until I saw a picture of a woman. A short thread.

Kucinghitam · 15/05/2025 10:18

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/05/2025 10:14

No - I’ve just tracked it back to Caz’s FB page, & it turned out we even had a couple of mutuals, so that doesn’t work.

Fair enough!

TonTonMacoute · 15/05/2025 10:18

I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them.

Jesus Christ. Can you try and be more patronising? The poor baffled old dears, just don't get it and they're scared by all the blue hair and nose rings

This sort of stuff is exactly why people refer to it as being like a cult. This is grooming language, more in sorrow than in anger (that comes later when you point out that what they are saying is rubbish) let me lead to the way of 'right' think.

Like missionaries for the weirder religions they are given a script to go out and convert everyone into true believers.

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 10:19

PrettyDamnCosmic · 15/05/2025 10:17

Do you have the link to hand where Caz shares her story??

I don't want to share the link but she has two profiles on Facebook and the post is still there.

Ddakji · 15/05/2025 10:21

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 10:14

@DdakjiCaz shared the story originally.

Where? Like I just said, there is nothing online, nothing on her social media or her own website, nothing apart from what I linked to, a US-based online account written by a well-known, highly hostile TRA.

If Caz shared this herself I’m happy to see it.

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 10:22

Szygy · 15/05/2025 10:16

I don’t really know why I’m even bothering to repeat what so many others have said but why would anyone think this was anything other than a woman? Why have so many people like the OP apparently lost the ability - which even all infants have - to tell a man from a woman?

Also - I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). WTF is that supposed to mean?

Because womanhood (‘girlhood’ 🤮) is just a feeling that is externalised through conforming with regressive sexist stereotype expression?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 10:22

Man is aggressive to woman, women support her, his wife gets him out of everyone's way. Some men will use any excuse to pick on gender-non-conforming women. We do know this already and it's a shame.

And as we keep being told by TRAs, the problem is once again... a man.

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 10:22

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/05/2025 10:17

I stopped reading after ‘cis’ and scrolled down until I saw a picture of a woman. A short thread.

Edited

You didn't miss anything. Sanctimony, pomposity, the Transman Gotcha with regard to a short haired woman who doesn't resemble or identify as a man, women are to blame for aggressive men and the answer to aggressive men is anything but spaces where they aren't allowed to enter. And some patronising guff about how anyone over the age of 20 is just too thick and out of touch to understand. Garbage in, garbage out.

Bobblebottle · 15/05/2025 10:24

Having read the story in the OP I don't really see the aggression from the man. It sounded like he was persistent but not aggressive or threatening. Caz clearly looks female so he was wrong and embarrassed himself and her in the process. I think he was well intentioned though. Let's face it, few women are going to feel comfortable to challenge a man in a queue for the ladies.

If Caz had been living under a rock and had missed the politicisation of the issue in recent years/months then her reaction would have been understandable. But given her post, she does know what's going on but chose not to acknowledge the issue (either to the man at the time or in her post) but instead blame women who wanted their sex class recognised in law.

This incident only happened because of people and institutions acting outside of the law for years, intent on breaking the social contract that doesn't require a genital inspector outside public toilet entrances, all to the detriment of women.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 15/05/2025 10:24

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 10:19

I don't want to share the link but she has two profiles on Facebook and the post is still there.

Are you sure that the two accounts refer to the same person? Facebook forbids you having more than one account & will block your account if it thinks you have infringed this rule.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/05/2025 10:24

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 10:22

You didn't miss anything. Sanctimony, pomposity, the Transman Gotcha with regard to a short haired woman who doesn't resemble or identify as a man, women are to blame for aggressive men and the answer to aggressive men is anything but spaces where they aren't allowed to enter. And some patronising guff about how anyone over the age of 20 is just too thick and out of touch to understand. Garbage in, garbage out.

I’m not surprised.

Ddakji · 15/05/2025 10:25

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 10:19

I don't want to share the link but she has two profiles on Facebook and the post is still there.

OK, I have now found it in her other FB account. Would you mind reporting my other post for MN to delete as it’s factually incorrect - I can’t seem to be able to do that.

I am going to share the FB post because I don’t think all this cloak and dagger stuff is helpful.

www.facebook.com/580996465/posts/10160928050316466/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

Ddakji · 15/05/2025 10:26

PrettyDamnCosmic · 15/05/2025 10:24

Are you sure that the two accounts refer to the same person? Facebook forbids you having more than one account & will block your account if it thinks you have infringed this rule.

I’ve found it.

www.facebook.com/580996465/posts/10160928050316466/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

Ddakji · 15/05/2025 10:27

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I’ve got this wrong and hopefully MN will delete my post - Caz has two FB accounts and it’s here:
www.facebook.com/580996465/posts/10160928050316466/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

JasmineAllen · 15/05/2025 10:30

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 10:22

Man is aggressive to woman, women support her, his wife gets him out of everyone's way. Some men will use any excuse to pick on gender-non-conforming women. We do know this already and it's a shame.

And as we keep being told by TRAs, the problem is once again... a man.

This with knobs on !!

Kucinghitam · 15/05/2025 10:32

Ddakji · 15/05/2025 10:25

OK, I have now found it in her other FB account. Would you mind reporting my other post for MN to delete as it’s factually incorrect - I can’t seem to be able to do that.

I am going to share the FB post because I don’t think all this cloak and dagger stuff is helpful.

www.facebook.com/580996465/posts/10160928050316466/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

I've put in a report to MN on your behalf, hope they withdraw your post as requested Smile

redcord · 15/05/2025 10:32

I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them.

bwah ha ha. Old people! You know nothing!

And also this:

His energy was aggressive. I was shocked.

Sadly for Caz, there will be many more instances of this male aggression in her life. One day her own daughter will tell her similar tales and she will not be shocked. And she will totally understand. Even though she is old.

Szygy · 15/05/2025 10:35

So the main reason Caz is mistaken for a man is that she’s got short hair? Even though she’s quite clearly a woman in all the available pictures? Okay then 🙄

ETA: 🥱 💤💤💤

thenoisiesttermagant · 15/05/2025 10:38

I find the OP pretty insulting and offensive to my belief (a pc) that women are fully human and have equal human intelligence.

Even if taken at face value it seems a pretty good argument for ensuring everyone obeys the law and toilets are actually single sex if labelled as such with no men in the women's. Then this man wouldn't have to do what he did because he could trust organisations to not be law breaking misogynist anti-safeguarding bastards.

And the idea that Caz having to put up with what AT WORST was a mildly uncomfortable interaction with a bloke (which wouldn't have happened if single sex spaces had remained single sex all along) is somehow worth the pain and trauma Dolatowski's victim and the many others like her had to suffer is really truly evil, frankly.

Someone questioning your sex when they see you from behind is not the same as being attacked by / videoed by / confronted by a 6ft 5 man wanking in the ladies. Especially if you're a child. The level of harm is not the same.

Karen Danson's experience and what she's been subjected to by her employer is about 20 billion times worse than what Caz dealt with there. Is she willing to throw Karen under the bus just so she doesn't have a mildly annoying social interaction? Jeez, some people are so fucking selfish.

Abhannmor · 15/05/2025 10:38

Lost at ' cis ' and ' much older'. Some idiot made a mistake about Caz's sex. Yes , it is possible he erroneously believed he was protecting his wife who was in the Ladies already. One day nobody will give a hoot about women's safety. If that day is not already here.

Ddakji · 15/05/2025 10:39

Kucinghitam · 15/05/2025 10:32

I've put in a report to MN on your behalf, hope they withdraw your post as requested Smile

Thanks!

OuterSpaceCadet · 15/05/2025 10:41

And the idea that Caz having to put up with what AT WORST was a mildly uncomfortable interaction with a bloke (which wouldn't have happened if single sex spaces had remained single sex all along) is somehow worth the pain and trauma Dolatowski's victim and the many others like her had to suffer is really truly evil, frankly.

So true @thenoisiesttermagant

This cannot be overstated

WithSilverBells · 15/05/2025 10:43

'Very, very successful music producer and DJ in London' posts a photo of herself even though "This is what I look like, not that it matters" and tells a very luvvy-culture-friendly story. Looks a lot like self-promotion to me

DecayedStrumpet · 15/05/2025 10:43

I already knew men don't like women not confirming to gender stereotypes, whether it's having short hair, not wearing make-up... or wilfully refusing to politely roll over and let men have whatever they want

What was I supposed to be learning here?

terryleather · 15/05/2025 10:44

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/05/2025 10:17

I stopped reading after ‘cis’ and scrolled down until I saw a picture of a woman. A short thread.

Edited

Same.

But let's all agree that men can be women now because of an anecdote posted on a board on MN about someone's female pal having short hair.